I’m so honestly relieved to be joined today by Michelle Cassandra Johnson - mystic, author, educator, shaman, potter, yogini, facilitator, alchemist...I could go on and on with the descriptors - but I say relieved because Michelle’s latest book is You Are Protected, and reading it, I felt protected - the book is like a nervous system reset that truly made me believe that I am or can be protected. Together we talk about burn out, energetic boundaries, the power of No, chickens and honeybees, Witchcraft as Activism, reclaiming sovereignty, chaos magic, creating spiritual connections, and casting a circle of protection. Michelle says, "Dwell in the space of possibility...Imagine a world where everyone is free." Michelle Cassandra Johnson is a beloved teacher, author, activist, mystic, spiritual director, intuitive and shamanic healer, lover of the more-than-human world, and a beekeeper. Her work centres on deepening healing individually and collectively, returning to wholeness, ritual, the delight of the natural world, and dreaming our way into what is possible. She is the author of several books, including the bestseller Skill in Action, The Wisdom of the Hive, co-authored with her best friend, and her latest book, You Are Protected: Invoking Spiritual Support to Sustain Your Energy. She lives in North Carolina with her husband, sweet dog, Jasper, and her honeybees. Follow her on her website: www.michellecjohnson.com/ or on Instagram: @skillinaction www.missingwitches.com/ep-310-wf-michelle-cassandra-johnson-i-call-my-energy-back-to-me-now/
www.missingwitches.com/ep-310-wf-michelle-cassandra-johnson-i-call-my-energy-back-to-me-now/
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Intro: You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch.
Amy: You must be a witch Hello, it's your girl Amy, and welcome to another episode of the Missing Witches Podcast.
I am honestly relieved to be joined today by Michelle Cassandra Johnson, mystic, author, educator, shaman, potter, yogini, facilitator, alchemist. I could go on and on and on with the descriptors. But I say relieved because Michelle's latest book, You Are Protected Reading it, I felt protected. The book is like a nervous system reset that truly made me believe that I am, or at least can be protected Michelle invites us to imagine a world where everyone is free.
Thank you so much for joining me today, Michelle. It's so great to meet you.
Michelle: Thank you, Amy. I'm happy to be here, and thank you for that really sweet introduction, and I'm so glad you felt- Yeah ... protected as you read the book and, and- It's- ... worked with it. Yeah.
Amy: It's like the book is a deep breath. Um- Mm-hmm
and I know you are also a breath worker, but- Mm-hmm ... before we dive into everything, you know, how are you, firstly, and what do you want the Missing Witches coven at large who are listening now to know about you and your work?
Michelle: Yeah. This is a great place to start. So as you said, my name is Michelle. Um, my pronouns are she and her, and I am coming to you all from the ancestral lands of the Catawba, Cheraw, Tutelo, Saponi, Occaneechi, and many other tribes in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.
And I also come to you from my ancestors' blood and otherwise known to me and unknown, so I'll just call in my mother Clara, and my father Cornelius, my grandmothers Sally and Dorothy, my grandfathers Fred and Cornelius, and my great-grandmothers Angie and Hopi, and then again, all of those ancestors unknown to me.
Um, you m- you shared a bit about l- labels, right? And some of the ways that I might describe myself as a mystic, an alchemist, and, um, I think that the alchemist title and archetype feels so alive for me across everything I do. Um, so I'm a facilitator. I've been a racial equity educator for a long time.
I've been a yoga practitioner and teacher for a long time, and a person who creates healing space in many different ways, and you named some of them. And all of the ways that I show up in the world and work with individuals and within groups and with the more-than-human world has to do with alchemy and transmutation.
Um, and to be able to transmute certain conditions, um, or factors that are in place or influencing us, I have to know some about, um, the past, like, and what we're reckoning with, and where we are now, and why we're here now, and where we wanna go collectively. So a lot of my practice is oriented towards collective healing and what is aligned with the highest good.
And, and that shows up in all of these ways, like Akashic readings, and intuitive healing, and guiding a yoga practice, or deep breaths, or down-regulating folks in the nervous system in all of the different ways that I do that. And certainly through my latest book, You Are Protected. Um, which is all about spiritual support in the ways that you spoke about that might allow us to shore up our practices and to return to our center.
Um, so that's, that's the, the, like, shortest version of how I can answer your question about, about what I do and, and who I am, and what I practice, other than to say I'm a lifelong learner, and I'm always immersed in some sort of program or, um, community or circle or ceremony to be able to deepen my understanding, um, and to learn new skills and practices to meet the moment.
So that's a little bit about who I am.
Amy: Another deep breath from me. E- even y- just your presence, like, having read the book, excuse me, having read the book, I got that sense. But now being in your presence, it's, like, a deepened sense of just that- Mm ... like, shift. We often start our coven meetings with, uh, calling the corners, creating a protective circle, and I saw that you have that.
It's not at the beginning of the book, but it's kind of close. Can you open this circle, this conversation that we're having right now, with the protective circle that you cast in and around your book?
Michelle: Absolutely. Um, and so it mirrors some of what you just said. I'll call in the, um, cardinal directions and the elements, um, the above and the below, and some benevolent beings to be with us, and this during our conversation and actually beyond, um, to create this kind of container.
So if folks want to just find a way to be in their body, they can sit or stand or close their eyes or keep them open. Up to you how you want to engage with this. And I invite us to take a deep breath in and a deep breath out.
And you can continue to breathe, feeling your connection to what is below earth and the connection to sky as I begin to cast this protective circle around us. I cast a protective circle around us now. I call in the east, south, west, north, above and below. I call in air, fire, water, and earth. The power of this circle holds us.
We remember that circles have no beginning or end. Healthy and well ancestors, energies and energetic forms, enjoin us now to support us in this circle. We feel the infinite flow of grace and love that moves through us. We meet all benevolent beings with love and grace. May this circle be a space of safety.
May this circle be a protective energy around us. May this circle and many other circles cast to support us in living into our highest good hold us now and into the future. May this circle help us create conditions for freedom in all aspects, physically, emotionally, spiritually, psychically, and mentally.
May we feel the power of this circle now and forevermore. The circle has been cast. And so it is, it is so. So be it
Amy: The circle is cast. Thank you so much, Michelle. And it really is perfect timing for this book. As a coven leader myself, people often look to me- Yes ... frighteningly, for ways of contending with the global toxicity of our current poly crisis.
We have war, and economic and environmental catastrophes, and ableism, and racism, and sexism, and transphobia, and pandemics, and everything feels hostile.
Coven: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy: And most of the witches and activists that I know are burnt the fuck right out.
Coven: Yeah.
Amy: So help me. Help me help them. Other than recommending your book, your books, plural- Mm-hmm
you are a very prolific author. Is this book number seven, I wanna say?
Michelle: It's book number seven, yes. Yes.
Amy: So other than recommending your books, what can I say or what would you say to these people who come to us and say, "I'm a witch and an activist, and I am burnt the fuck out"?
Michelle: Yeah. I imagine the first thing I might offer is, um, resonance with that, that everything you named and more, right?
There's so much going on right now, so much moves through us, and most of us who identify as witches, and activists, or organizers, or empaths, or sensitive about what's going on understand that part of the strategy of a fascist state is to overwhelm our nervous systems. And so that's, that's working pretty effectively, and yet we're still...
We still yearn for change, um, in, in whatever ways we might create that, big and small and everything between. And so I would, I would identify with that. I would affirm there is a lot going on. But the other... The second thing that came to me as you shared and asked this question is that... is lineage. Um, you know, we are part of a long line of witches, and activists, and change-makers, and alchemists, and mystics, whatever words people use.
And so often my practice is to tune into that lineage of change, of belief in the possibility that something, in addition to this chaos that's going on, that something else might exist, of remembering we're a lineage of, of folks connected to, um, people who believe in different realms of experience. And it is not to bypass or escape the timeline that we're in and the relative truth that is playing out and that we're a part of, right?
I'm not... I don't negate that. It's, it's more that there's also something else going on, and, and there's a long line of people who have believed that, and here we are now situated in that timeline too and that lineage. So I would draw from that and invite people to specifically think about lineage in that way of, of change work, or of alchemy, or of their covens, right?
The, the threads they can pull on, um, to be able to stay tethered here, but also to recognize their spiritual gifts and how their spiritual gifts might be the right medicine that we need, we need now. And also to set boundaries, to rest when we need to rest. More and more people come to us now probably, um, than maybe in the past because I think there's just a frayed sense of being now collectively, right?
We're, we're just, many of us not sure what to do, and as I named and you named, overwhelmed and burnt out because we've been doing these things for a long time And so I think listening to the cues around rest and the different forms of rest, respite and refuge, and what creates those things for us, and also leaning into community.
So not just my individual lineage, right? But this collective lineage of which we are a part that we can draw energy from to return to our center now, which is, I think, one of the things that is most needed.
Amy: Say more about creating energetic boundaries. And while you take a little moment to think, um, a coven mate said to me once, "Boundaries are a better teacher than leading by example."
And that was massive for me. I always thought- Mm-hmm ... that leading by example was the best way to fill in the blank. Yeah. Um, but creating boundaries has been a lot more fruitful for me than just being... You talk so much about being a vessel, but about this vessel that was constantly felt emptied. Um, so yeah, say more about creating energetic boundaries, please.
Michelle: Well, I'll just start by saying I love boundaries, and, um, I had to learn how to love boundaries. I, I'm not sure I, I, I came out of the womb in this incarnation boundaried in a way. Like, I had to learn through life experience and, and modes of being burnt out . Um, and then what it might look like to create boundaries.
So I just name that because it feels like a process, um, for many of us, especially if we care about what's going on, and people come to us, and we're leaders in some way in our different spaces. Um, and s- and one of the times that I always think about in my life when I reflect on boundaries is years ago in 2017, I was in a job.
I had mo- my life was upside down. Everything cracked open. So many big shifts in my life, and I moved across the country, and I was ... I worked in a, an organization that was so dysfunctional and had, had no boundaries really. Um, and I was pretty high up in the organization, but I wasn't the head of the organization, and I had come in.
So I didn't create the organization. I came in as a facilitator, a leader, and was responsible for about six other facilitators, meaning I was the one who supervised them, um, and helped guide them and lead them and set boundaries for them. But that also meant no one set boundaries for me in the organization, and so I found myself, because I was kind of a buffer between the folks I supervised and the person who was in charge, um, which I've been in that role so many times in my life in organizations, and I understand it some.
Like, I can protect, right, the people and, and create the boundaries for them, but that has, that sort of left me. And I, I found myself saying no more than I had ever said no because no one else was saying no. I was kinda like in staff meeting, "Nope, nope, not, not doing that," or, "They are not gonna do that," to my boss.
Like, I just kept leaning into that role and, and something felt really challenging about it because I'm not someone who moves around the world and says no all the time, right? It felt very different based on my nature and character to assert myself over and over and over and say no again and again and again.
But it taught me a lot about boundaries and the risk of not creating them, and also what can happen in organizations if we do and no one else does that. And eventually I left that organization, which was a big boundary set, right? For it to, to do what it needed to do, but I also modeled, like- This is not working in my life.
I actually need to do something different so I'm not further depleted, which in essence is so much of what I've written about in You Are Protected. So I just wanna share that example in case there's resonance for people, and to remind people that no is a really powerful word. And it doesn't make us like mean people, right?
It just means we're saying yes to something else, which is what people often say. We're also reclaiming ourselves. I think it is a process of reclamation to say no to things that are dysfunctional and toxic and will not serve the highest good. Once we know that's going on, we can make some choices. And, and I also wanna just name, because I do have a, an analysis about the world and power and oppression, some of us are in positions where we can't say no.
So I just, I, I wanna name like the reality that we move through. But I often think about, or and I often think about the micro adjustments we might make, the places where we can say no or we can pause and set that boundary verbally or energetically. So some ways we can do that specifically in addition to saying no are exactly how we began this conversation, with either casting a circle of protection or, or imagining a circle of protection around ourselves.
So whatever that is made of for us, or a cylinder, right? Maybe it's translucent or maybe it's not, or I've worked with a activity called the egg activity where you imagine you're inside of an egg and it's made of what you want it to be made of and it's some, whatever color you want, and people... Someone might be able to be in it with you or you keep people out, right?
Create that kind of energetic boundary that's imprinted in your psyche so that you can call on that in those moments that you need. Um, that is one way. And of course, there are other ways that we can create boundaries, some of which I've gone into the book, um, or written about in the book, like engaging elemental energies to draw strength into ourselves to create the boundary, right?
We can do this with water. We can do this with the energy of fire, right? Purification and burning away that no or creating a clear marker or boundary. Um, we can do this with archetypes. We can do this with... I, I'm 51 and I I, um, am, am not yet a crone, but close enough, late stage perimenopause, and I feel like the crone archetype is like, "Fuck no."
Most of the time the crone archetype is like, "No, not..." Because we're deciding where we wanna put our energy rec- with recognition that our lives don't go on forever. Now, you know, this incarnation I'm gonna leave this body. So if you like embody whatever that is, if that's like lion for you, or that's crone, or that's like magician, or that's some other energy you wanna call on, like have...
Or a talisman, like call on something that will remind you that you are sovereign, and to reclaim that sovereignty so that the world does not deplete you. These are some ways that I create boundaries energetically.
Amy: I'm just writing down reclaim sovereignty. Sovereignty is a word that you use a lot, too.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Amy: And let me read a paragraph from You Are Protected- Okay ... Michelle C. Johnson's new book. Michelle, you wrote... And your dog is here. What's your dog's name? I
Michelle: know. Jasper. He's
Amy: my whole heart. Hi, Jasper. Jasper. Yeah. We love you Jasper. Thank you for coming. You wrote, "Make no mistake, we live in an imbalanced world, and many of us are working to mitigate the suffering that arises from it.
So I don't want to suggest that we must always be perfectly balanced. It's okay to have an off day or feel impacted by the sorrows of our lives and work in the world. What matters is that we acknowledge and make room for the overwhelm, chaos, and imbalance we're experiencing so they can move through us instead of consuming us.
This journey we're embarking on is not about being perfect, but finding our way back to ourselves when we are pushed off of our path." That's so important. Like you were talking about the first thing you would do if someone came to you was like to acknowledge that. And it's- Mm-hmm ... again, it's a relief to have someone say, "Yeah, it's, it's chaotic out there, but we can find our way back to ourselves."
And you mentioned, um, a couple of these things, but I get a lot of questions about how to connect specifically. Um, and you talk about archetypes, deities, ancestors, lineage was the word that you just used, elements- Mm-hmm ... and what you call protective agents. Your spiritual secret service. So- Yes ... two-parter, um, how do you make these connections and why is that important?
And part B, talk to me about the spiritual secret service. Can we all amass a team like this?
Michelle: Yes. I'm just writing this down. Um, how to connect and why is it important? I think w- what comes to me now is that for some of us, the connection we have always had to other realms and to spirit or creator or mystery or moon or water, whatever words people wish to use, or names or no name at all, i- in- in some ways these connections have been severed on purpose by hierarchical systems, and because many of us have had to practice in secret because the risk was too great to, to practice openly or to engage in these spiritual practices that we, th- that I explore in the book and that I know that you work with and that we do, and that many people engage in in covens and in ceremony.
And so I name that because The connection is still there, and part of me believes that no one can take that away from us. Like, we are divine spiritual beings with souls housed in these incarnations now, and yet the spiritual connection to resource and that which is bigger is, is ever present. So I think we need to remember, I'll talk specifically about how to connect, but part of it for me is beginning to remember, oh, the connection's still there Right?
Regardless of the stories I've been told, the narratives, the ways I've been, you know, um, forbidden to practice these things, that nothing can really completely sever that connection. And so I wonder what is possible, possible for people if they dwell in that space of possibility, right? Like, "Oh, right.
Someone told me it was bad to practice these things," or it was wrong, or the consequences, right? Or they created fear around this. But we understand that fear is in place around magic and mysticism and witchery because it's so potent and powerful. Like, we- otherwise, it wouldn't feel like a threat. You know?
And so I just think, like, we, we know that, so I just wanna invite people into that space. And some specific ways to begin to connect have to do with intuition. Um, and for some people, if they, if they think about different ways they tap in, the different claires, like sight or sound or gnosis, knowledge, right, or taste or smell, um, or dreams or, or visions, right?
I would invite people to begin to explore how they receive intuitive information from perhaps realms of experience they cannot see. Meaning, I hear things. Sometimes there's constant chatter going on, and the way I discern that as a download versus a thought is there's no doubt. My grandmother Dorothy's just talking to me, right?
Or the spool of thread. I've, I wrote a chapter about my grandmother Sally, who I, uh, just don't talk about very much, but in this book she wanted to come through. The other day, I was about to move a spool of her thread, and it was like, "Nope, nope, I wanna be near your book." I s- I was gonna put it back on the ancestor altar, and she was like, "Absolutely not.
Keep it near your book." I was like, "Okay, I heed the call. I don't know why. I'll do that." And so I hear things in that way. And no doubt, it's like declarative, it's clear. I know the signature of my grandmothers. I'm learning more about that. Or I have dreams, and there are symbols, or I connect very much in the more-than-human world and through nature-based practices.
So I receive a lot of information that way. These are some examples of where we can notice that connection is still present. Is it when you sit in meditation? Is it when you take a deep exhale? Is it outside in, in certain spaces or connected to certain landscapes? Is it in a circle of people? Is it through sound and vibration?
I just, i- I think most of us have a practice like that or an awareness of, "Oh- I think I saw something, but I don't know if it's real. I feel like everyone's had an experience like that, and what can happen is I don't think it's real. I don't know. Was it there? I'm gonna doubt this. I'm afraid to believe in this.
And I would say follow some of those threads. That's how we begin to reconnect to what may have been frayed or suffered. So that's one place. It's already there, and we have to begin to notice and become aware, which also means as burnt out as we may be, that we have to discern what's, what's real and what's not, particularly in a time where technology is being used in ways on purpose so that we will not be able to discern what is real and what is not.
So that's why I'm saying it. Like, we h- that skill we're gonna need to survive, y'all. What is real? What is not real? What is ancient knowledge? What is artificial intelligence? Like, we have to be able to, to tap into that, to understand that difference so we can be really clear about the information that we receive because I believe the universe is in constant communication with us, as is our, our, our highest good, always in conversation And the other way we connect based on your second, the second part of this question, is I wrote a chapter about, um, a Secret Service agent because when I was a kid, my friend's father, um, he was a Secret Service agent.
And it felt like a really fun, clever way to think about protective agents for us. So all the things you named about, you know, ancestors and archetypes and elemental energies and saints and deities and natural curios, to think about them like a Secret Service agent would operate, which is to protect us actually at all costs.
They're doing that, right? Like, some of them are laying their bodies on the line in that way. Well, how can we call in these energies and elements that might support us so that we can stay embodied and hear and clear, right, about what is needed and who we are, and resourced most importantly. So I, I love the idea of these as protective agents on our behalf, and we may connect with one, right?
I might connect with the empress or the primordial mother, right, or the caregiver, um, archetype one day, and I might connect with my dog Jasper is next to me, so the stone jasper, right, to ground myself another day, or rose quar- quartz, or rosemary, which grows in my backyard, or mugwort, which grows e- everywhere in my yard.
So I might, I might connect with those things just depending on what I need. Um, so the practice does not always have to look the same way is what I wanna invite people to think of. Or these protective agents can operate differently in different contexts. Um, so that's a little bit about, or a lot actually, in response to your question.
Amy: Uh, listeners, I, I just want you to buy this book, You Are Protected, by Michelle Johnson. Um, but if you just need a bumper sticker takeaway, listening to you talk just now, Michelle, like this idea that it is a reconnection. It's not a connection that we're making. It's a connection that we are fostering because it has always been there.
And I'm sitting here. I can see ... Listeners, I can see Michelle's room behind her. The bookshelves are stacked with books and tinctures, and then I think I see an altar behind you. Yes. Yeah. I don't know if it was from You Are Protected or from an interview that I watched with you or listened to with you, but you said, "My office is also my magic room."
Coven: Yes.
Amy: You can see me. My office is also my magic room. I,
Coven: I see.
Amy: Yeah. And, and to me there, there's no separate ... I mean, we are professional witches, so that makes sense. Right. But talk to me about- Your altar about this notion of creating a sacred space that is- Mm-hmm ... also a means of protection. But specifically I wanna know about how you use your altar, how you use your magic space, and why that's important to all of us, but specifically to you.
Michelle: Yeah. I love this because the other day ... I, I do oracular readings seasonally, so four times a year, and my friend Amanda is my oracular assistant w- be- she holds the space with me, but she also reads the questions because I'm in a trance when I do it. And we were, um ... At the end, I did three readings the other day, and at the end I was sort of looking around on my bookshelves and chuckling.
I was like, "I have a whole metaphysical store in this room," where I am. I mean, crystals and tinctures and, and the books and some water that I gather, moon water. Like, it, it, it is real. It is in alignment. It is here, and there is no separation, to your point. Um, and years ago I was, um ... I am married now, um, but years ago I was married to someone else who for very good reasons, I feel, um, had difficulty connecting to the metaphysical world.
And that meant that the part of me that wanted to build altars everywhere was sort of, like, shrunk and clamped down in a way, and I didn't know it until I left that marriage. Um, I wasn't aware of how much I wanted to create altars and sacred spaces everywhere I went until I left and ended up having altars.
At the time I was living in an apart- moved out and moved into an apartment, and I had altars everywhere, all over. Like everything was an altar. And I like to begin there because I actually do think everything can be an altar if we work with it in that way, right? If we, um, intentionally place certain things or in- or infuse energy into certain things that we might have on the altar, like a candle or a crystal or a, um, deity statue or a blessing or dirt from the earth, um, or water, or I have pine cones and acorns and buckeyes like everywhere.
I mean everywhere, all over the house. Um, or oils, right? So I just... Sometimes people think altar building or creating an altar is, it's complex and I, I, I don't think it has to be so complex, right? I think it can be as simple as us creating a space where we are, and it can be in the more than human world. I just did this the other day, created a, an altar, um, with found objects in the more than human world, and now it's changed so dramatically given the rain and the wind and the animals who have come by.
So we could be inside, outside. We can even think about our own internal altar, right? Um, if we don't have access to some of the things I'll name. Often I have an altar cloth Um, on one of my altars behind me, there's a moon... There are actually two moon, um, cloths. One is large, and then there's a smaller one on top.
I usually have a candle on an altar or some form of light or fire. And I usually have representations of the elements, so often I have, I have feathers everywhere. Um, I find feathers everywhere, and so there are feathers, right, for air. I have water. I have crystals and stones for the earth or, or often some dirt from, from my land or other, um, energies from trees or flowers on my altar.
I have some flowers on my altar back there. And right now, I have a lot of deity statues on my altar, all representations of the primordial mother, regardless of gender. But the primordial mother energy is present there, given that I'm journeying through an experience with my own mother, who has Alzheimer's.
So I, like, sit in front of this altar as, with these energies a- as my mother's, um, because I decided that is what I needed to do for my heart and spirit. But you don't need to have all that. You can have a cloth and a candle or a cloth and a vessel of water or a cloth and a sacred stone or outside, right, representations connected to the cardinal directions.
Right? You might place certain anchors in the cardinal directions, rose petals or different herbs, um, or bones. I find feathers. My husband finds bones. They're often part of or around me, right? They are now. There are some above me, and there are some on my altar, and there are some outside, um, near the sacred oak tree in my backyard.
So I name that because I think people can tune into the way they wanna create the sacred space and the altar, make it as simple as they wish, and then in some way honor the items, objects we place on the altar Right? So if I go to... I have a swan on my altar back there connected to Saraswati, um, but also the element of water.
It's a g- green glass swan. And so I, when I go to fill it up with water, right, I'm praying to that water. I'm blessing the water. I'm thanking the water. I'm thanking Saraswati for wisdom and energy and knowledge, um, in that way, and, and creativity, right? That's what I mean when I say... Or we light the candle.
Before we light the candle, we might say some prayer to fire or at least invoke how we want to use it, right? To remember our inner light or the light around us is, is one example. Um, or maybe we wanna burn something away and look at the color of the candle and light it, right? If we have a stone, I have, uh, ameth- I have labradorite and amethyst and citrine, all these things in front of me, and I'm just holding the amethyst now, right?
If I wanna place this, it's often on min- amethyst is all over my house. So, right, I might hold this and take a deep breath and feel into it and remember that for me, amethyst does many things, but it connects me with source and that which is bigger. Um, so I place that on the altar. So there's intentionality, we know this, in, in how I'm talking about this, right?
An intentionality in how we build an altar, because the altar is a space holder. It be- it becomes a space holder for the energy we infuse it with. And I always say altars change over time. Whenever I build an altar in a workshop or ceremony with people, people continue to add to the altar throughout the day.
Or if it's multi-day, the altar becomes something completely different by the end of our time together. It is amazing to me that that happens, because the altar is part of the energy of the space. It's collaborating with us, and that's how we can use altars. But also as a space, like, we sit in front of or we stand in front of or we envision in our mind, um, to c- to reconnect to that.
So that's how I, how I work with altars, and I, I love them. Um, sometimes my dream is, like, to just go build altars with people because it's so special to bring energy together in that way and create, um, a sacred experience through, like, building this container that holds us and holds the energy of the room.
Amy: There is a, there was a, like, mm, Mexican feminist art group called, uh, Pollo de Gallina Negra, and their contention was, as, as an art project, that we could alter reality by transforming the visual world. And to me, that's part of what an altar is. You go into- Yeah ... a space that you have transformed into a sacred.
You made it sacred. Mm-hmm. And now it is sacred because you have altered that reality.
Coven: Mm-hmm. Um- I love that.
Amy: D- I'll cut this out, but do you have, like, a couple extra minutes? I have a few more questions that I really wanna get to, but I don't wanna-
Michelle: I don't have anything after ... keep you, uh, no. No, I have- Okay, great
time.
Amy: Good. Thank you. I'll cut that out, don't worry. Or- Because... Or whatever ... or don't.
Michelle: It's live.
Amy: Or don't. It's like Hey,
Michelle: everybody. Hey. Do what you wanna
Amy: do. Um, because I'm, uh, there's something that I wanna lay on the altar of this conversation, which is your TED Talk- Mm ... which was So upsetting and beautiful and heartbreaking and heartwarming.
You know, all it w- a real emotional rollercoaster. But I wanna, I wanna put Cynthia on this altar.
Coven: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Mm-hmm. She, she said to you... And listeners, I'll put the TED Talk in the show notes. Don't worry. Go watch it. Um, Cynthia said to you, "White supremacy gave me cancer."
Coven: Mm-hmm.
Amy: And then she goes on, and if you wanna finish the quote, that, that's fine.
But, "White supremacy gave me cancer," said Cynthia. Mm-hmm. So I know I'm kind of opening up a different trajectory here, but-
Coven: Mm ...
Amy: Cynthia told you that white supremacy gave her cancer.
Coven: Mm-hmm.
Amy: So talk about your work in racial justice and equality in, and your work with Cynthia, if that feels better for you.
Michelle: Yeah. I l- I so appreciate, um, your asking about Cynthia and bringing her name into this space, as it is getting close to another anniversary of her passing. She passed in 2016, um, on a full moon, and I think it was a super moon, actually. And her name w- um, is Cynthia Brown. She's on my an- there's, there's another altar on the wall which is an ancestor altar behind me, and she's there.
Um, and interestingly enough, I called her name into space the other day. She's just been present and, and in my heart and on my mind. And I worked with her for years in a collective called, uh, Dismantling Racism Works. And, uh, as was named, we and I, I've been a racial equity educator for a long time, and in a Black body for 51 years.
And, um, Cynthia was part of this collective of, of DR Works, Dismantling Racism Works, where we would go into community organizations, spaces that invited us in to raise consciousness about personal, institutional, and cultural racism. And really to do alchemy, engage in alchemy, and transform the space, and invite people into embodiment, and to remember their humanity and our shared humanity.
I would say that is what we did, um, in, in many different ways. Um, and so I worked with Cynthia in that way for a long time. But Cynthia was also a, a dear friend, uh, everybody's best friend, um, a grandmother energy in the community, um, a community organizer for the whole of her life. Um, she was on the front lines in community, in ceremony with folks, um, ch- aligning her words with her values and the actions she took and created in community with others.
Um, and when she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, she invited me over to- teach her some, um, breathing techniques because she had to get radiation, and she found that it, she was bracing for that, right? She, every time she went in, and that's traumatic. So I understand why there was this nervous system response and bracing.
And so she just said, you know, "Can you teach me?" So I, I went over and, and taught her some techniques, and then she was making dinner in her kitchen. I could see her, and her back was to me, and I was at her kitchen table. And she said what you said. She said, "White supremacy gave me cancer, and I have to..." She either said reckon with or contend with white supremacy to try to heal.
And I, I mean, we can just let that land for a moment. Like, I have this toxic disease that I know will kill me, and I have to work with the same system that gave it to me to try to heal My whole, like, cellular makeup changed in that moment. Like, which is evident for anyone who watches the TED Talk or hears me talk.
Like, it, it changed so much within me to hear her say that because I, I, I understood how confounding that was. Not from a ph- I wasn't, I didn't move in the same way, right? I wasn't sick in that way. But I, but I understood what that meant. And the way this connects to some of what we've already talked about is I have written about malevolence and malevolent energies and negative principalities.
I think white supremacy fits into that category, and any form of oppression and toxicity on a systemic level, right? That is malevolence. That is a negative principality in contrast to the, the work that we might be doing if we identify as a light worker or a witch, or we're working with energy to move into alignment and in accordance with the laws of nature, right?
That is benevolent, inherently benevolent. But cancer rooted in white supremacy, right? Cynthia's a Black woman. Um, she was in her 50s when she was diagnosed. Uh, and so that's malevolence. That's an example. We understand that, I think, I believe this, and many people talk about this related to metaphysics, that any sort of disease process within us physically, emotionally, mentally, psychically is, is a manifestation of energy into matter.
That is what I think about Cynthia's statement about white supremacy and malevolence. The system that was designed to take her out and her Black body then manifested the energy of cancer in her body, and eventually she transitioned, um, because of her pancreatic cancer. So I, I think this is an important point that, um...
And I say this not as a doctor, right? I say this as someone who loved Cynthia and has worked across lines of difference and in community with other people of the global majority and Black, indigenous, and people of color for a long time to try to, um, expunge this, um, internalized oppression that we can feel, which of course shows up based on other identity markers too because of systems of oppression and a hierarchy of bodies.
And so that toxicity of what have we internalized that now might turn into matter that is toxic within us, and then the only systems for us to go to are the ones that actually created this malevolence to begin with. That's a whole other book really. Now that I've said that, that's an entire book. I, I can't wait to read it.
But that is a little bit about it. Yeah, it's like we have to understand it's not all light. Like- this obsession with light and ascension toward light, we need to understand the polarities and how they work with one another. So if we are doing work that is benevolent in nature, sometimes the energy of malevolence shows up to, to try to make it so that we can engage in that benevolent work.
Um, and we need to understand this
Amy: Yeah. And relatedly, um, when your publicist, shout out Crystal, um, when your publicist sent me your book, the email had the subject line Witchcraft is Activism. Mm-hmm. And I thought to myself, "Wow, Crystal really knows our audience." Crystal really knows how to grab my attention.
So from your perspective, Michelle, um, either in your working with Cynthia or in general, um, how can witchcraft be activism? How is witchcraft activism?
Michelle: Mm-hmm. One of my, um, shamanic teachers, Mashe is his name, he, early on in our work together he talked to me about chaos magic, and he's like, "We need to work on that for you."
Because you're in groups a lot, and because of the way that I hold space, the chaos comes up right away and people are like... Like, family system chaos is what I mean within the context of a group, shows up when there's more than one person in the room, right? All the time, and, and, um, whatever needs to rise to the surface emerges in the space, partially because I, um, try to meet that in some way, but also the re- meaning I try to hold that, work with it, transmute it, alchemize it in some way.
But the reason Mashe brought up cas- chaos magic is he's like, "You need to put some of this on the group to be able to work with their own chaos they're creating so you're not expending as much energy," which felt like a gift. And I bring this up because I think so much of what activists do is chaos magic.
Like, we can create chaos and then use that to transform that, or we can just work with the chaos that is around us and try to transform that, right? All the polycrisis, all of the things that we've named in this conversation. So that's what came to me first of like it's all chaos magic, actually. That's what activists are doing.
Um, they're also, I feel like w- we as activists are, are in this process of excavation, like constantly digging up what is real, what is true, um, and in our own ways, right, the many practices we have, trying to invite people to look at that instead of to be wrapped up in some illusion. Um, and there m- there's a lot of that going on now where people feel like they can transcend these conditions, or in, in ways that make them not, uh, connected to their bodies and clear about what their medicine and offering in witchcraft might be now.
That's what I mean when I say transcendent. Or people are just completely checked out and bypassed what is going on. So I think witchcraft is activism because it's all alchemy. It's like what are the conditions, how do I articulate what they are, and in what ways do I wish to shift them? Whether that's around the cauldron in my backyard, or that's in a board meeting of a nonprofit.
Like, what i- what are we working with? What is the shared vision? Uh, where would we like to go? Where is there room for conjuring and instead of gripping to the specific outcome, allowing for what wants to come through to, to emerge, right? Something we didn't even think was possible, right? We'd never seen before.
Um, so I think that is witchcraft as activism. I also think witchcraft and, like, ritual recipes require us to, um, that conjuring, but also to trust. Like, we have to wait sometimes. Sometimes we get the sign, the answer, the spell, right, right away, and other times we have to wait. And other times we have to integrate what has happened, right?
The change happens over time. And so for, for witchcraft and activism, I think it's back to lineage. Like, we're in this for the long haul, which means the integration process is ongoing, and we plant seeds through our practice around the cauldron, metaphorical or physical cauldron, right? And then we trust that those seeds will, um, grow, right?
Or come into fruition in some way. Maybe that we have a vision for, but maybe that we're, we, like, leave our imaginations open, um, to see what could happen.
Amy: Yes. I'll, I'll just go back to, um, this quote from you. "Imagine a world where everyone is free." The imagination is a tool that is so useful for us-
Michelle: Mm-hmm
Amy: witches, magicians, alchemists, and one that is, um, it was Diane di Prima who, who wrote a poem that contains the line, um, "The war is the war for the human imagination, and no one- Mm-hmm ... can fight it but you."
Michelle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Right? That's deep.
Amy: So I have an ulterior motive question.
Michelle: Okay.
Amy: Because I, me, Amy, I started a punk band this year, and we're called Psychic Self Defense.
Intro: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Because for me, music is how I transmute my fears and my frustrations. So playing in this band is, and writing the lyrics and screaming the- Yeah ... words, is literally a form of psychic self-defense. And you are a practitioner of healing arts, and you talk about psychic attacks in the book.
Coven: Mm-hmm.
Amy: And also my favorite T word, transmutation, which has come up many times in this conversation.
So talk to me about transmutation and also what psychic self-defense means to you.
Michelle: Mm-hmm. I love this question, all of the questions. This such a generative conversation. Um I, I wrote a chapter about animal energies in You Are Protective, You Are Protected, and one of the animal energies is the honeybee, and I was just outside with my, uh, chickens and honeybees before I came in for this.
I went out to sit with the chickens and let them run around and to check on the hives, just to look at them. I didn't go into the hives today. And transmutation always makes me think about nature, the more than human world, because it happens in the more than human world all the, every day in some way, and we can pay attention to that, right?
Day and night. We can pay... Right? That's one way that happens, right? Or the sun and the moon, or, um, the way even the landscape shifts, the flowers change, or it's fall here, the leaves fall off the trees. They're starting to fall, or they're starting to change and fall, um, and the way that that happens, um, or there's less for my chickens to eat because some of the grass is turning brown, right?
Like that, that's what I mean. Um, or the butterfly bush, right? And who's there now versus who was there even a week ago. There were monarchs a week ago. There are more carpenter bees today than, than monarchs. That's... Transmutation happens in that way, too. It is something changing form, right? Um, from one form to another.
Uh, and when I think about the honeybees and transmutation, there are many ways they do this because they work seasonally, meaning they do different things at different times, just as we do. They're really tapped into the larger ecosystem and, um, to the needs of the hive and the seasonal shifts that need to happen.
So for example, they only build honeycomb certain times of the year, which is a process of transmutation because they have to have enough energy to excrete wax from the glands in the back of their body, and then another honeybee has to come and get that wax, and then it's chewed on, right? And passed along from bee sister to bee sister so that they can create a tiny circle first, and then it becomes a hexagon, which is transmutation, too, because it's the most efficient shape.
They also do this when they turn nectar into honey and take the water content out of the nectar, but first they have to gather it and turn it into honey. They do this when they bring in pollen and turn the pollen into bee bread, which is what they feed the larva, um, before they cap the larva with a thin layer of wax.
So I just... That, one, they wanna come into this conversation because they always do. Also, they're amazing teachers about many things, including community and organizing and healing and transmutation because that's their job. They also work between realms, um, here and there and everywhere, and they're psychopomps.
Um, so I, I invite people to think about how are we in this practice of, of using our energy or connecting with energy to be able to change something from one shape or form into another. That is how I think about transmutation, which feels really powerful, and it makes me... Like, we're not powerless in this moment when everything unravels and falls apart.
We actually have more agency than we think, I believe. Um, and, and maybe we can look to those teachers, for me, the honeybees or the butterflies or the sacred oak tree or tulip poplar or the, the water, right? That we can look to, to our teachers and this- our own experiences of transmutation to be able to remember that I think we all have that skill.
Um, it does require us to be, uh, crafty in how we use our energy though, and, and, uh, clear about the purpose of that. The bees change nectar into honey so they have food to survive winter. That's why they do that. They build the honeycomb to store the resources. They bring in the pollen to turn it into bee bread so that the next generation can have food.
All of that's transmutation that I think we need to be up to right now in all those ways, in whatever way. And the psychic self-defense, I love the name of, of your punk band and- Um, it's also a form of transmutation to engage the throat chakra in that way, and to work with sound and voice. We know the frequency changes so much within us on a cellular level.
We understand this. And so, um, I have, as I've written about, experienced some psychic attacks. Um, I, I know a little bit about them now from the experience of, um, having, having felt energies attached to me, vampiric and otherwise, uh, malevolent energies or just confusing energies, and I have had the experience of them draining my energy.
And I think in so many ways You Are Protected is about, um, th- psychic defense for sure, but d- like, a defense system not necessarily being defended all the time or guarded. That's what I'm talking about. But a, a system that helps us have those boundaries which we talked about earlier, because psychic attacks happen all the time and people don't know what's happening to them.
Um, and so I feel like that framing of, of psychic self-defense is important. It's like if your immune system is compromised, you need to do something to care for it so it's not further compromised. That feels like psychic self-defense to me, right? Like, so, so what do we do when there's this break or something within us has been compromised so that we can gain our strength back and feel resourced and grounded, is how I think about the psychic self-defense.
Which feels so important now. Always, but now based on some of the things we've already talked about, that there's just a lot of information coming in which feels like a psychic attack, and a strategy of the machine to do the things we talked about, right? And so, and to make us all confused, right? And not embodied, and not know where we are.
And so I just feel in what you named about psychic self-defense that, um- Engaging in these practices we've talked about protects the psyche, right? And the release, I'm thinking about you like screaming the lyrics. We also need that kind of release too, which is transmutation as well. Like, you're making sound and screaming it out in some way, and you're releasing that so you're no longer holding that in the same way.
Uh, we need to be able to do that too. Um, so I love this. I'm gonna be thinking about psychic self-defense for a long ti- I think people think about physical self-defense and not psychic self-defense very much, and are boundary less and open in these ways that are kind, but also at their expense, and then the expense of their communities because self and collective care are intertwined.
So I do think we need to be thinking on, about this defense or protection on all different levels, not just physically
Amy: And that's what You Are Protected ultimately is- Is about ... about. So listeners, take these buzzwords with you. Um, boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Chaos magic, imagination. And, um, uh, uh, there's a, there's an invocation in the book that maybe I'll, I'll ask you to read by way of conclusion.
Coven: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Um, because, and we talked about this, this notion of boundaries, I think for women femmes- Mm-hmm ... I'm no gender essentialist, but specifically, and, and may I be so bold as to say especially for Black women and femmes- Yeah ... um, keeping energy for yourself is looked at as an act of selfishness. I'm always telling my friends who are in this position, "It's time to enter your villain era."
And-
Intro: Yeah ...
Amy: for women and femmes, often c- the, quote-unquote, villain is someone who's focused on herself, which- Yeah ... you know, a man who is focused on himself is not the villain. Right. But the woman is. So, um, this invocation really, really, really spoke to me, and so I was hoping you could read it for our listeners and have it speak to them, too.
But listeners, buy the book. Don't just go by this podcast episode. Don't listen to me. Trust me, the book is incredible. If you need to figure out how to reassess your energetic boundaries, if you just need kind of like a warm hug in text form, I would suggest that You Are Protected is a warm hug in text form.
I could go on and on and on, um, but I'm gonna pass the mic to you to read this invocation, Michelle. Thank you.
Michelle: Yeah. Thank you, Amy, for your intentionality and your questions, and your time, and your practice and work and witchcraft, um, and for conjuring this conversation. And I'll read this invocation, and I want to say that, um, many people have talked about this invocation or sent feedback about it, and some people, when they first heard it, started to weep because of the reclamation process that is inherent in this I call my energy back to me now, not as an act of individualism, but to clear what no longer serves me and the highest good.
I call my energy back to me now, not selfishly as if I am separate from all that surrounds me, but as an act of love toward myself and others. I call my energy back to me now, unhooking and unbinding myself from malevolent or vampiric energy. I call my energy back to me now, because I choose to tap into my undying strength, resilience, and clarity.
I banish any energies that do not support me and the highest good. I am swaddled in the knowing that I am a divine being worthy of protection. I call my energy back to me now.
Amy: I am swaddled in the knowing that I am a divine being worthy of protection. Say it to yourselves now, listeners. And in the meantime, Michelle, what is the best way for our listeners to follow you, support you? Obviously buy the book. The book is You Are Protected by Michelle Cassandra Johnson. Just go buy it immediately.
But further to that, how can our listeners follow you, support you
Michelle: Yeah. So I'll just name that it's also on, um, Audible and maybe a few other places, an audio version read by me. If people want to access it that way, it's in my voice, if that resonates- Yes ... with you. Um-
Amy: That resonates with me.
Michelle: Yeah, I just like to offer that.
Sometimes people... Uh, many people are actually reading the book and listening at the same time, and then there are practices and journaling prompts in, in both the text and audio, but they can hear it. Sometimes that goes in differently. People can find me, uh, on my website, michelecjohnson.com, and I have all my books there.
I have events there that I update every week. I teach online and in person on various topics, all related to the things we've talked about today. But that's a good way to stay in contact and see what I'm up to, and also see some recent, um, interviews, and there's a lot on, on the website. Um, and another way, if people decide to visit michelecjohnson.com, they can connect with me, is you can subscribe to my newsletter, uh, which is just my...
the michelecjohnson.com/subscribe, and I send it out every Thursday, and it is like a love letter, and people keep saying it's like having tea with me. Like, it is... Like, they sit down and, and take it in as if they... It's like a cup of tea. Pe- I mean, a lot of people have said that because it... I share a lot of personal details, what's happening in my life, what's happening here on my land, right in my yard, what's happening seasonally.
There's always a, a entry into the portal of my life, but also a, a teaching or an offering connected to the collective in my newsletter. So that's a really good way to get to know me more and just to feel like we're connected and I, that I'm writing to you, right? That, that it feels personal in that way.
And then I'm on Instagram, @skillinaction, which is the title of my first book. @skillinaction is my handle on Instagram, and I post there quite frequently, almost daily. So that's a good way to see what's going on in my life and what I'm up to and what I might offer soon.
Amy: Thank you so much for your time and your energy, and also the reminder that we are not powerless.
As much as the machine wants us to be confused- Mm-hmm ... into believing that we are powerless, we are not powerless, and we are protected.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Thank you again so much, Michelle.
Michelle: Thank you, thank you, thank you, Amy, and good to be with you.
Amy: And blessed fucking be.
You must be a witch. Hi, I'm Amy.
Coven: I'm Reesa. Voices you may have heard on the Missing Witches podcast.
Amy: Or maybe you know us from our books, Missing Witches and New Moon Magic, or our deck of oracles, the Missing Witches deck of oracles. Or maybe you just Googled, "Find a coven," and here we are. We're what you found.
Coven: We've been producing a podcast that was really our project, a labor of love, kind of a love letter between us two old hag baby witch friends in Montreal. But we went looking for stories. We really were coming from a place of longing and missing. We were looking for a feminist history of magic, and that became a huge, many year life mission.
And somewhere along the way, we started our own coven.
Amy: We're just a couple of besties who, 20 years ago, started making music together, and then making magic together, and then making a podcast together, and then making books together, and making all of the things. And we want to invite you to come into this creative cauldron of energy.
Coven: It's sort of like our own social media for feminist witches. Welcome to the coven. I'm Zoe Flowers. It is a place of, I would say, mutual understanding, mutual learning. We teach each other. We learn from each other. We do magic for each other, light candles for each other, encourage each other, share stories, create stories Hi, I'm Reed.
I am a member of the Missing Witches Coven. I have been since 2023. I'm an ex-evangelical, an ex-fundie, and so after leaving church, I really, really longed for community and ritual, and I have found both of those things here. I am a member of the Missing Witches Coven. I joined because the podcast lowers my cortisol levels.
It's validating, it's affirming, and it's nurturing. Hi, welcome to the Missing Witches Coven. What you can expect in joining is one of the most collaborative, creative, and heart-filled communities that I've ever seen. I love that, uh, my activism is welcome here. We are a justice-loving, anti-ableist, pro-queer, anti-racist, pro-trans, did I say queer?
Queer as hell group of people. I wanted to join a digital coven so that I could easily come and go as I please without feeling like I have to do something regardless of my comfort level. This is not the coven that's gonna force you to do any of that. This is the longest community I've ever been a part of, which says something.
I hope that you'll find it as, um, supportive and loving and kind as I have. I have learned stuff here. I've been able to share my knowledge with people here. Do you like music? Do you like witchy shit? Do you like history? Do you like meditation? Do you like art? Do you like queer spaces? Do you like trans spaces?
It's a place where we gather around music. In our meetings, there's usually some sort of song, some sort of instrumentation. We also have the Hive, where we get online and one coven member creates a playlist for that month. And the conversations that you're going to be able to take part in. There's, uh, a whole archive of content.
Do you like anti-ableist spaces? Do you like anti-racist spaces? Do you like the community building through the digital web? Then you can come join our hive, our coven. It is the place for you Are you neurodivergent? Are you chronically ill? Do you have an altar? Do you not have an altar? Do you spend a lot of time in bed?
Do you spend a lot of time on the floor? Do you just need a place to feel like you can be yourself? Then I think the Missing Witches Coven is for you. It was for me. Hope to see you. So yeah, that's what we do here. I'm glad you're here. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to the coven. Every time I'm, you know, frustrated with social networking, I'm reminded that there's already a place for me, so I hope it's also the place for you.
Welcome. We love you even though we haven't met, because we know that you have been missing witches too. We want you to know that we're here. There's hundreds of us all around the world inventing what magic and witchcraft is together, and we'd really love for you to join us in that project of re-enchanting the world.
A home where we all thrive while dancing to the cycles of nature under the phases of the moon, sharing stories and helping each other learn from life and life experiences. Be a witch. Be a witch.
Intro: Be a witch. You must be a witch
Amy: And blessed fucking be
Intro: And blessed
Coven: fucking
be.