I’m so excited to be joined today by Archivist, poet, prophet, conjurer, novelist, alchemist, master educator, community arts organizer, and culture keeper Dr. Treasure Shields Redmond. Dr. Redmond is the co-founder of Fannie Lou Hamer House, a migratory artist residency, and is the founder of The Community Archive, a non profit where she teaches communities how to collect their elders’ oral histories. Dr. Treasure talks about poetry and music, Hoodoo and Ashe, being radicalized, and together we define our Witchcraft through a lens of revolutionary optimism. Treasure says, "OF COURSE YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ANCESTRAL PRACTICE, BECAUSE ALL OF THESE [spells] ARE JUST CRAFTS!" www.missingwitches.com/ep-303-wf-dr-treasure-shields-redmond-revolutionary-optimism-despite-it-all ep-303-wf-dr-treasure-shields-redmond-revolutionary-optimism-despite-it-all
www.missingwitches.com/ep-303-wf-dr-treasure-shields-redmond-revolutionary-optimism-despite-it-all
Amy: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Missing Witches podcast. Of course, I'm Amy, and I am so excited to be joined today by archivist, poet, prophet, conjurer, novelist, alchemist- ... master educator, community arts organizer, and culture keeper, among other things, Dr. Treasure Shields Redmond. Dr. Redmond is the co-founder of the Fannie Lou Hamer House, a migratory artist residency, and is the founder of the Community Archive, a non-profit where she teaches communities how to collect their elders' oral histories.
I'm so grateful, Dr. Treasure, that you made time in your clearly very busy schedule ... to come and sit down and chat with me today. Um, before we get into my questions, like, how are you? Who are you? We always say you're under no obligation- ... to be who you were five minutes ago. Right. So who are you today? How are you today?
What do you want our listeners to know about you?
Treasure: Oh, my goodness. Um, first off, thank you so much for having me. This is truly an honor. I have been listening to you guys for over a year now, and, um, there have been some really shining moments. Um, in particular, when Risa... Is that her name, Risa? Risa's, um, episode about cancer, which I held in my memory as I created a banishing of cancer recently, uh, celebrating a friend who, uh, beat cancer for a second time.
But, um, and I wanna talk to you about all of your instruments behind you, too, and ask you about that as well. But who am I and how am I today? Well, uh, I, um, I'm Treasure Shields Redmond, Mississippi native, um, full of revolutionary optimism despite it all. That is who I am today.
Amy: And listeners, you just heard the title of this episode, Revolutionary Optimism Despite It All.
Treasure: Yes.
Amy: Talk to me about that because that seems like the title of a poem.
Treasure: Listen, you have to have revolutionary optimism. One of the things, as I was walked down the radical path by my ancestors, and frankly by what I watched happen over the last decade and a half globally, and often, um, as a result of actions of the country in which I live, the US, um, I finally was disabused of everything that kept me from being a communist.
Amy: Great.
Treasure: I was, I was disabused of all the propaganda and gnarly energies that, you know, the US had worked so hard to put around words like communism and anarchism and feminism. And, um, you know, the Party for Socialism and Liberation, PSL, they talk about having revolutionary optimism. So that's a phrase I, I bo- I borrow from them, which means that you cannot give in to despair.
That is, you know... I'm, I'm gonna turn my computer around because I have a quote from Audre Lorde. What did she say?
Ah. Despair, despair is a tool of our enemies
Amy: Yes. Yeah, so
Treasure: we cannot give in to despair.
Amy: We cannot. And you make me think of, um, in one of your videos you said something along the lines of that you were surprised to find that you became more radical as you aged- ... and not less.
Treasure: Yes. Yes. So, you know, I said earlier I'm a Mississippi native.
I have, uh, roots in both places, the place that I am and the place that I was born. I was born in Mississippi. I currently live very near a community in Illinois called East St. Louis, Illinois, and that is where my father's side of the family is from and where I would come for summers and holidays. But my primary home where I slept every night until age 18, left for a couple years and came back for college, um, and then finally left maybe at age 29, 28, um, I...
it was a s- deep South Black community shot through with, um, hoodoo and, and lots of, um, charming Africanisms and, and Southern cultural ways, and also a group of Black folks who aspired to the middle class. I was raised working poor. My home was my mother and my grandmother in the projects. So in the US, they had, uh, something that started after World War II called the Federal Housing Project, and it was originally designed for GIs to come home and have affordable, um, uh, apartments in preparation to use the GI Bill to buy the homes.
So a place to land and then you could go get a home. And over the decades, Federal Housing Projects, or they've been shortened to just be called the projects, have just become where, uh, poor folks, uh, and mostly Black poor folks live. So in Meridian, Mississippi, I was raised in the projects. My grandmother was a maid.
That is who took care of our home. My mother struggled with mental illness, so was only able to work intermittently. Um, so working poor. Um, went to work every day, but still did not make enough money to pay market rent, still needed rental assistance through the Federal Housing Projects. But I was taught to aspire through my church community and through my home community, aspire to the middle class.
You know, try to get up there and go to college and, you know, become a homeowner and, you know, just, uh, move up the class ladder. Um, and you know, I was raised with phrases like, "If you're not at the table, you're on the menu. You gotta be in the room to have a, to have a say so." And you know, on the surface those sound like, you know, homespun wisdom.
They make sense. But as I have continued to mature, I discover that those are kinda propagandistic statements for capitalism. So don't destroy the table, don't question the table, try to scoot in there. Don't ask why everybody can't get in the room or why it's so hard to get in the room, just get in at all costs.
Um, so you know, I went to an HB- Well, let me s- let me go first to, 'cause I was gonna skip a big part. So I was al- I was always an artsy kid, always a performer. That's why I'm interested in Amy's, um, in Amy's instruments behind her But, uh, always an artsy kid, always a performer, you know, in the, in the choir in church, in community theater.
Um, and me and some friends started a hip hop band in, in junior high. And then the hip hop band got a record deal. Got a record
Amy: deal with- I'm so excited that you're bringing this up. I, I, I was gonna save it for later, but yes. Yeah. Please,
Treasure: please, please, please. Yes. I was like, "Sh- should I just skip over that?
That would be weird." But, um, no, I, you know, I came up during the golden era of hip hop, you know, very much, uh, A Tribe Called Quest, and Jungle Brothers, and, uh, Peake, Queen Latifah, where people were Afrocentric backpackers, um, that sort of thing. And I loved it so much, and that is what I considered myself.
Although our record deal was with someone who did more pop, dance type version of rap. But anyway, we got a record deal. Everybody wanted to get a record deal. There was no such thing as streaming. Um, there were some notable independent rap artists, especially in the South, but, you know, we wanted to be on MTV Cribs.
So, so you had to get a record deal. And I got a record deal with my group. We were called One Cause One Effect. It was a male/female rap duo before the Fugees. Um, and I mean, we became like so many other groups. We be- we became a tax write-off. Um, MC Hammer and his brother, who kinda ran the business, because it wasn't, of course, MC Hammer.
You can't be a global star performer and also, like, be reconciling books at a record company. So it was mostly his brother who ran the record company. And it was one of those situations that I see repeated over and over again, where there is a young or young-ish, um, Black male performer who seems to be tapped into something, some zeitgeist, some money-making scheme.
And the record industry goes, "Hey, you, come into a meeting. You find us several acts, because you seem to know what works and what sells." And the, that artist who is tasked with finding those acts, and often receives the money up front, so they might receive 8 million, 16 million, some large amount of money, they are then not motivated to take care of your career, 'cause they've already been paid.
So unless they are just a good person who feels very collegial and collaborative about young artists in general-
Amy: Which, which the, the record industry is not known for.
Treasure: No, not at all. Not at all. So, um, you know, MC Hammer got his money. His brother got his money. They, they did what, what the contract said, which was put out this amount of albums on this amount of artists in this amount of time.
And then after that, there wasn't really any love and care put into our careers. So I spent a few years in Oakland, California. If you, those of you who remember these things or have, you know, researched these things, Hammer was from Oakland. So I spent a few years in Oakland, California just as an underground artist after, um, I severed ties with, uh, Bust It Records.
And you know what? Everything, there are no coincidences. Everything happens for a reason. Because of course Oakland is a power center. It's the, it's where the Black Panthers were founded. It is, you know, the ground level, the second, the second home of, of, of queer revolution. Um, it is just a powerful place, and the indigenous communities there, um, are powerful.
So it was the first time as a 18-year-old Black woman from Mississippi that I realized several things. Number one, everybody's not straight and Christian. Can you believe it?
And it was the first time that my, that a socialist consciousness, that I was confronted with that. It was the first time Black people my age were not enamored with wearing logos of companies, and asked me why I would be. Why would you wear Nikes if it's operated by sweatshops? I couldn't believe that, because I had come from poverty, and I wanted to be wealthy.
And wealthy people wear Nikes, and MCM, and carry a Dooney & Bourke purse, and, um, or whatever, whatever was the hot brand at the time. So I count Oakland as the place that first sh- really shook my foundations, even though the foundations of the Christianity I was raised in were shaken earlier. But I'm gonna stop talking right now and, and, and listen to Amy.
Amy? I feel like I'm going on, and on, and on, and on, and on. Oh. Come
Amy: on. If you've heard the podcast you know my favorite is when people go on and on- ... and I can just sit and listen to them tell me their life story. But do, do any of those recordings still exist?
Treasure: Oh, of course. Mm-hmm. Of course they do. So Hammer and his brother sold the catalog, so unfortunately I don't make money off the songs of mine, even though I do still- Mm
make writing royalties off of other artists that I wrote for, and some of the stuff that I wrote for. But, you know, not, of course not the share that mirrors how much work my partner and I put into it.
Amy: Yeah. No, I
Treasure: can tell. So, you know, every now and then I get a $8 check, a $5 check.
Amy: It reminds
Treasure: you- .03 cents ... of the olden
Amy: days.
Yeah.
Treasure: Right, yeah. But you can go on Spotify and stream One Cause, One Effect if you wanna get in a time capsule.
Amy: Oh, trust me, I'm going straight there because- ... I had- The clock is
Treasure: tick-tocking but my balls stay. Sweat releases what I'm tryna-
Again, I'm your woman, your lover, but for now I'll be your friend.
Amy: I had read that you had this connection to MC Hammer, but that's pretty much- Mm-hmm ... all I knew about it. So now, trust me, it's gonna go into heavy rotation at my house. And if I can find it on vinyl, I'll pay whatever it costs.
Treasure: I see your Erykah, is that an Erykah Badu album behind you?
Amy: Of course. I have- Oh
Treasure: my God ...
Amy: I have I think everything except for the new album that she just put out with The Alchemist, which doesn't come out- Mm-hmm ... on vinyl till December, so- Okay ... I will be getting. Erykah is a grand high witch. I mean- Oh, yes ... there's no, there's no question about it. You know?
Treasure: Most definitely.
Yeah. Yeah, the first track on that new album that just, where she just calls out ancestor after ancestor. Yeah. I first saw her perform that on YouTube. I th- I think she was at The New York Times office maybe, or The New Yorker's office. But anyway, I was so struck by that perf- it's so powerful. And it's all ancestors all the time with me, so.
Amy: You mention ancestors, so I'm gonna ask this. You said in one of your videos, and of course I love watching your videos, listeners- ... YouTube, Instagram, all the links will be in the show notes. But you said, "Of course you have to have an ancestral practice."
Treasure: Mm. "
Amy: Because all of these," and you sort of gestured to the spell work that you were doing, "are just crafts."
Treasure: Mm.
Amy: And notionally I love this. Like, we're doing spells, but are we just doing arts and crafts? What's the difference? And seemingly for Dr. Treasure the difference is an ancestral practice. So since you gave me- It is ... the segue, talk to me about that. Talk to me about how ancestral practice makes spell work work, and not just craft.
Treasure: Well, for, you know, in the US South, um, hoodoo i- is what African spiritualities transformed into on the North American continent. So the roots of hoodoo are ancient, and come from practices in West and Central Africa, who get their ashe from ancestors. Now, you know I love me some Western occultism, pointy hat witchism.
You're not gonna stop me at Halloween from putting on my pointy hat. I will be having my jack-o-lantern. I will be, you know, re-watching The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. Um, I, I will. Um, at the same time- Until recently, most often when I see those sorts of practitioners, they claim a lot of remote and personal power.
So I'm gonna light a candle, I'm gonna burn herbs, and through my own will, my own energetic field, myself, I'm going to cause something to happen outside me. I'm gonna change someone's experience. And that is just not what hoodoo and the foundational practices that it finds its roots in believes. It believes that it is the ancestral ashe, it is the energy of the grandmothers who gave birth to us all, um, that continue to reverberate.
And if you continue to venerate and feed and call their names, um, and remember them, then you can access those energies. And, you know, I don't know if you've seen the latest, uh, Practical Magic 2. Did you go see Practical Magic 2? Oh,
Amy: yes, in the theater. I was there on Friday night.
Treasure: In the theater. I went to see it in the theater as well.
And I, I mean, this isn't a show to be giving a, a cinema review. It drug in some places to me. Um, I was glad to see those characters again, but it, it, it was dragging in some places, and some of the dialogue felt a little ad-libbed. I was like, is this what you do when you have really famous people in a movie?
You just let them just say stuff? Like-
Amy: Yeah. I mean, th- that's exactly the review that everyone that I know has who has seen it. It's like- Mm ... it's good. It's not great.
Treasure: Yeah.
Amy: Um, but we're happy to, like, support the witch movie economy
Treasure: and go in and see it. Exactly. Exactly. But I was happy to see that they went to England To go deeper into the ancestral ashe.
Yes.
I was like, "Yes, and yes." Yes, and yes. And I meet a lot of mostly white witches, some Black, some Black witches, but mostly white witches who often report that their family of origin was harmful, and that is why the ancestral piece to them feels harmful. Yeah. Um, but us- but usually when I'm talking about, uh, ancestral, I mean, go on, I mean back back.
I mean Bavaria. I mean I mean go back to the Eastern European with the babushka on back. You know what I'm saying? I'm not just talking about just your mother. I would love it if we all had mothers who inspired a feeling of care. Some of us did not, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, I'm saying those ancestral practices, because everyone had a pre-colonial, pre-Christian ancestral practice
Amy: And you run the Community Archive, which is, in essence, an ancestral veneration practice, right?
Treasure: Talk about it. Yeah. Talk about it, yes.
Amy: You talk about it. You talk about
Treasure: it. I am, like I said, it's all, it's all ancestors all the time with me. You know, the, the, the light is always on, and it's always hot and fresh in the ancestral realm for me. Um, in 2015, um, a chapbook of poetry I wrote called, um- Chop
Chop: 30 Kwanzaaas for Fannie Lou Hamer, which i- which is all poems about an incredible and civil rights worker, proto-feminist, ancestor, Fannie Lou Hamer. Um, and then of course, me and my good friend Dale Chambers created Fannie Lou Hamer House, which is the migratory residency. And then in 2022, all of my work with sound and poetry and stories and ancestry kinda culminated in me creating the Community Archive, where we house so many, um, oral history archives, as well as, um, this latest project, which I'm really proud of, which is, uh, interviews with people who are descendants of survivors of the 1917 East St.
Louis race massacre. So, um, this summer we actually turned it into a living history tour, and had people come out and embody the ancestors. So, um, you know, I, I just love it. I love it. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm here for it.
Amy: Um, I don't wanna pass by Chop this quickly, so I'm gonna reverse a little bit. Okay.
I mean, poetry is one of the great loves of my life, so I was very happy to read your book of poetry. Yay. But I had never heard this term, I mean, having studied poetry and all the different ways and forms of making it, I had never heard this term Kwansabas.
Treasure: Ooh.
Amy: And so I looked into it, and according to my research, it was, correct me if I'm wrong, your father who invented this poetic form?
Treasure: That is correct. I
Amy: am the family- It's all ancestors everywhere All ancestors all the time. I- Please tell me more. Yes.
Treasure: Now, my father is 88. He's not an ancestor as of yet. Even though he keeps, he keeps threatening. He keeps, he mentions it every time we're together. But, but yes, I'm in the family business, which is being an English professor and a poet.
So, um, yes, he and the members of his writer's club created a poetic form called the Kwansaba, made from the words Kwanzaa, which is an African American harvest festival taken from Swahili East African roots, kind of born out of the Black Arts Movement where people were, you know, looking to do things that were for us, by us, about us, near us.
Uh, and the word saba, which means seven. So it is, in general, a praise poem made of sevens. Seven lines, no more than seven words per line unless it is a proper noun. Um, yeah, so I love that little form. It helped me to not proselytize in the poems, because I was so obsessed with Mrs. Hamer that when I first started writing about her it was just like sermons.
And I was like, "Wait a minute, this might not be a poem." So, so I found that, that f- that form, and that form helped to locate the emotion, m- focus on the emotion in each moment that I was capturing
Amy: Yes. I mean, with the po- poems that are sort of strict, it, it- Mm-hmm ... some people find them confining, but I find them to be a different kind of freedom to have- Hmm
to work my way into how do I restate this with words that are no more than seven letters? And- Yeah ... only seven words per... And I f- I find, like, a, a freedom in those explorations. Was that the case for you too?
Treasure: I ca- I can't say that. I, you know, I'm a free verse girly. Okay. I'm not a natural formalist. However, I do make myself do it because, um, I love poetry so much that I like learning new things about it and myself.
So right now I'm attempting to write a ghazal, the G-H-A-Z-A-L form. Um, kind of a Middle Eastern, Persian, Palestinian form. And, um, it's hard. It is hard.
Amy: Yeah.
Treasure: You have to really work on it.
Amy: Did you, did you pick this form as like a, a, a free Palestine, you know, like, as an homage to the people who are living through what they're living through, genocide?
Treasure: Partly. Partly I did, yes. That is, that is partly why it was attractive. I'm actually working on a collection of poems now that are all about water and what- Hmm ... and how water is representative in our lives. So I found this incredible origin story of the Bozo people who live near the Niger River in Mali.
And when, after I re- after I heard the story and retold it to myself, I even posted it on Instagram, then I said, "I should write a poem about this since it's about the Niger River and the origin story of those people and that river." And, and I thought the ghazal would be a great way to do that. So, um, I've taken on something, 'cause it is difficult.
It has these repeating rhyming parts, and there's a bit of a subject scri- stricture and w- yeah, there's, there's, there's some things happening with the ghazal, so pray for me.
Amy: I'm praying for you. And, and I, I wanna know, like, you're so prolific. You do so much work. Where do you get your energy from?
Treasure: Well, you know what?
I for so many years wrote in different journals that I wanted to live an art-centered life. And for many years I thought, "Well, of course you have to be wealthy so that then you can have time to be an artist." And but what I have discovered is that you just have to make art.
Amy: Hallelujah. Amen.
Treasure: You, you just have to, you just have to do what you do.
Do what you do. So, um, I have a schedule of what I do, and the three things that matter to me each day, if I get these three things done, I'm fine. It is some sort of movement, e- take a walk, get in the pool, get on the treadmill. Write, work on poetry or write something. And practice my guitar. I just started taking guitar lessons.
Amy: Listeners, you can't see my face, but it's like, "
Treasure: Ah." Listen, my, my, my dream is to one day be able to pull out that guitar when I'm getting ready to, to, to read some poetry somewhere or, or, or, you know what I'm saying, cast a banishing somewhere and pull out that guitar. Ooh, I'ma fuck 'em up with that one, ain't I?
Amy: You sure. I cannot wait. I cannot wait. And maybe it'll... Hopefully you'll put out another album, right?
Treasure: Listen. Or you just keep going with this. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Now, you know some friends and I put out an album about two years ago.
Amy: I did
Treasure: not know that. It's jazz and poetry. Yep. Wow. Jazz and poetry. The Humanitics.
Humanitics. So it's the word human, I-T-I-C-S. People can purchase it on Bandcamp if they want to support, but if they just wanna stream it, they can go to Spotify, look up Humanitics. You will be sweetly surprised. I'm, I'm also a big-
Amy: Listeners, you know I'm gonna find this ... I'm also a big- I'm also a big collaborator.
I'll share it. I'm a collaborator. Yes.
Treasure: That was my, you know, back when people were doing word of the year?
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Treasure: Several years back, that was my word of the year. Um, and it has really borne fruit.
Amy: Listen, I would play in a band with you any day of the week, so you just let me know Yes, girl. You
Treasure: just let me know. Girl, don't, don't say it, don't say it too loud.
I'll be up there.
Amy: I am not the least bit joking. Now I'm excited. Now I'm excited. So your great loves are movement, writing, um, poetry, playing the guitar. And but you told me earlier you love to talk about hoodoo. Yes. So I'm just gonna sit back and say- ... Dr. Treasure Shields Redmond, talk about hoodoo.
Treasure: Yes, I love to talk about hoodoo.
I, you know, as I was saying earlier, hoodoo is what, what, uh, African traditional spiritualities transform themselves into on this part of the North American continent. And, uh, our grand ancestor, uh, Zora Neale Hurston, created a really foundational text called Hoodoo in America. I would suggest that anyone who's interested in, in conjure hoodoo root work, uh, these are some of the names it's called, to read that text.
Um, and you know, I was lucky enough to have been raised in a community where hoodoo was believed in and practiced. So some of my earliest stories from my family have to do with hoodoo. I had a cousin who was, uh, who battled mental illness and was hysterically mute, you know, just could not speak and would not speak, was just trapped inside herself.
And they took her to the conjure woman in Louisville, Mississippi, and they reported that the woman put her feet in blue water. And then after, afterwards her voice came back. Um-
Amy: Interesting.
Treasure: Yeah, yeah. My grandmother tells a story of her beloved Aunt Pennsylvania, who we call Aunt Vanny, um, who had this husband that she loved named John.
She took in a friend who didn't have a place to stay, and so then the friend s- started showing signs of being pregnant. And then it was revealed that she was pregnant by Aunt Vanny's husband. And, uh, my, my grandmother talked about Aunt Vanny looking under her bed and seeing these peanut shells scattered under there, and apparently that was a working designed to, quote-unquote, "Bind your nature."
So, uh, that girlfriend wanted her husband, wanted to disrupt their sexual life so she could replace Aunt Vanny. Uh, that is not what happened. However, Aunt Vanny never did con- conceive her own child. So we- you know, we're left with a mystery there as to what exactly did she bind or did not bind. But, um, yeah, I...
Even though I didn't see explicit root work in my home other than my grandmother's little garden and her catnip tea- What I did know was that there was something else other than the Christianity I was raised in. Early on, I knew that something was not matching up. Uh, and, and people, you know, have different stories as to what their deconstruction moment was.
I love to watch deconstruction videos on YouTube and see everybody's different moment of fissure, the moment when the window cl- cr- pane went k- just cracked. And for me, I was about 14, um, and we used to have something called devotion in church. This was a, what is now called praise and worship in, in Black churches.
It's a time for songs and just to kinda whip up the spirit before explicit open the doors, people take a seat, and the man is gonna preach part of the service. And devotion was different in that it also allowed people to stand up and give testimony, good things that God had done for them that week and so forth and so on.
And I remember a woman stood up, and the first thing she said was magical. That didn't bother me. She said, "I didn't have money for a bill. I opened my coin purse. I closed it and prayed. I reopened the coin purse. I had enough money for the bill." That didn't bother me. That didn't make me go, "Oh, they lying up in here."
It was what she said after that that bothered me. After she said that, and people, you know, clapped approvingly and said amen, she said, "And I can't wait to get to heaven and praise Him all day long." And Amy, that is the crack in the windowpane for me because I couldn't believe that's what we were practicing for.
That's, that's it?
Amy: To, to praise Him.
Treasure: To go to heaven and kiss somebody's ass for eternity.
Uh, no thank you.
It just didn't sound heavenly to me. And, you know, maybe that's because I was really enjoying my life. You know, sometimes when you tell people you were raised in poverty, uh, people connect poverty with abuse, addiction. They connect it with s- you know, feelings of lack. But the truth is I was in a child-centered home.
I was the only child in the home. Um, my grandmother and mother were loving and eccentric, and I never felt hungry, and they weren't proselytizers. We all went to church because it was a small Black community, and what else would you do? How would you be tapped into the social anything if you didn't go to church?
So I wasn't being told that, you know, secular music is evil or wearing lipstick is ev- none of that. Um, so I, you know, I really liked my life, so I needed heaven to be better. That did not sound better, and that was the m- the first major contradiction, and over time, the contradictions began to pile up. Um, and it, it made me wonder what came before the contradictions.
And as I lived and worked and came into contact with people, I realized that I was already in contact with what had come before. I was already in contact with it, and people were talking about it and doing it and practicing it. And, um, so that is where I am today with that as a, as a devotee, as a practitioner of, of, of conjure.
Um, you know, just so grateful for the ancestors and ready to spark revolutionary change using that ashe. Mm-hmm. How do you,
Amy: how do you specifically, you in your practice, define ashe?
Treasure: Mm. I call ashe, ashe is another word for energy, another word for intention. Um, you know, oftentimes when you're in, in, in, in community, when somebody says something, people will say ashe as kind of a stand-in for amen.
Um, uh, it's, it's- It's a multivalent word that just means agreement at the deepest sense
Mm-hmm.
Amy: I love that. But we also have in your practice non-agreement, or maybe we'll call it- And that's right ...
Treasure: banishing.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
And your banishing series has been very popular. I mean, I was, I was following you before you started, not before you started doing banishing, but before you started- ... doing this Instagram series.
Treasure: Mm-hmm.
Amy: And I was, like, so delighted to see how popular that series was. Mm. So what, what prompted you to be like, "I'm banishing, and we're going live"?
Treasure: You know, um
As I, as I have watched the full mask of white supremacist, capitalist, heteropatriarchy be removed, I realized that it was time not to hunker down, but to speak back and loudly about it And if you are using a spiritual practice to retreat, hide, and take cover, then I would ask you to unpack whatever that spiritual practice is.
Your spiritual practice should free you body and soul. So I said, what's my... You know, one of the witches, I mean, there are several, quote-unquote, "witches," spiritual people that I love, one of whom is got to be Oshun. I hope you'll have her on your-
Amy: She has been- Or did you already? Oh, multiple- That's right. I did
many, many, many, many, many times ... I believe she was on there. Yes.
Treasure: Oh,
Amy: we love Olo Omi. Uh, honestly- Yes ... everything that comes out of her mouth is just like, I want it tattooed on my body. But
Treasure: yes, you said- So brilliant. So brilliant. Um, and I love, um, Kelly-Ann Maddox from England, and one of the things she said is, you know, every now and then you'll see a group of witches saying, "We're hexing Donald Trump," or, "We're hexing..."
And, and you know, people will go, "How well it... It didn't work." But one of the things that she said is you're donating magic, and I love that idea. I love the communal. You know, I love a good stone soup, a good stone soup magic. Come on.
So, uh, the banishings are my, are my, uh, offering, my gift, my little part, my little cut of carrots. I had a few carrots from my garden, and that's what the banishings are.
Amy: Would you... Listeners, if you haven't heard them, you can go to Dr. Treasure's Instagram. I will link it in the show notes. But for the time being, Dr.
Treasure Shields Redmond, would you read us one of your banishments?
Treasure: Yes. Okay. Yes
I banish the fantasy of male protection. I banish the fantasy of male protection. I banish the false god of man. I banish the pedalization of men. I banish. I free you from the spell of maleness. I free you from the lies of the patriarchy. I banish all male gaslighting. I banish. You are freed from assisting your attacker.
I loose and banish the shackles on your mind. I expose the triple-headed snake of its origins, whether it comes from our homes, our religions, or the cultures, movies, songs, or stories. I banish belief in men at the expense of ourselves. I seal off the entryway from our homes where the fantasy of male superiority held us captive where we slept, pretending, propping up, colluding to create a man who didn't even exist.
No benevolent patriarch, no protector, no provider. I banish the fantasy of male protection. I banish the fantasy that trades a mont- a woman's real divinity for a man's false divinity. We bleed for days. We negotiate with death to give life. We bear wounds to save this reality. We return over and over again and feed a multitude with small provisions.
I banish belief in men at the expense of ourselves. I banish the fantasy of men. You are freed from assisting your attacker, free from kneeling at the guillotine, free from assembling your own gallows. I banish the shackles on your mind. I banish lies about men. I banish male-centeredness. And finally, I banish the lie that he is not capable of murdering you.
Your son is capable. Your brother is capable. Your uncle, your pastor, your imam, your rabbi, and yes, your lover and husband is capable. I banish the fantasy of male protection. I release you from the lamb to a slaughter spell that has made you value a man's life above your own
Amy: Everybody, let's take a big deep breath together
Thank you. The, the plague of white feminism that will prioritize the imaginary protection of a man thanks you- Mm ... for putting it in its place. And I thank you- Thank you ... for carrying on the work of your father, for carrying on the work of Zora Neale Hurston. Zora once said, "I want to collect like a new broom."
Mm. And I feel like you- ... Dr. Treasure, are just this shiny new broom picking up everything that you- Yes ... need in order to do your hoodoo, in order to create your magic. I am so excited to, to discover your music. That's what exactly I'm going to do right now in this first break. I will share it with you. But in the meantime, it has been so glorious to read your poetry, to watch your videos on YouTube and on Instagram.
To sit down and have this conversation has been a joy and a de- and a, a treasure, a well-named- How well-named you are. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today- Thank you ... Dr. Treasure.
Treasure: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been a joy. Thank you. Uh, I am saying that we will see each other in person We shall.
Amy: I'm, I don't have a single doub- doubt about it. Before I let you go though, um, if our listeners want to support your work, follow you, buy all your stuff- ... what's the best way for our listeners to find you, support you, pay you, follow you? Um- All that stuff
Treasure: Thank you. Thank you. Um, if they go to Patreon, they can look on Patreon at The Dr.
Treasure. Um, there is- And
Amy: sorry, I believe it's, it's only $2 a month, correct?
Treasure: It's $2 a month, y'all. Come
Amy: on.
Treasure: $2 a month. Now, there are other tiers, but they are also quite affordable. Um, and you can also get a hoodoo card reading or a traditional tarot reading from me as well. Um, so if you want to book a reading, you can go find me on Instagram at The Dr.
Treasure. Look in the bio and you can see a link to book a reading, or you can go to Patreon and join, where there's a tier where you get a free reading on the full moon. Full moon free reading, and it is less expensive than a reading, even though both are quite affordable.
Amy: Thanks again.
Treasure: You
Amy: are so welcome.
What a joy. I can't wait to hang out and play guitar in person.
Treasure: Such as it is. I'm a beginner.
Amy: We're all beginners. I was talking to a friend of mine. He's been playing guitar for, um, he, he's almost 60, so he's probably been playing guitar for 50 years.
Treasure: Okay.
Amy: And I've been playing guitar f- since I was a teenager, so you know- Mm-hmm
thir- 30 years. Okay. Um, but I just started playing the bass. I've been playing the bass- Wow ... for one year, and I told him, "It's my one-year bassiversary," and he said, "Yeah." "I don't think I'm any better at guitar than I was after one year," so you're there. Give it a year. That's all you need, one year. That's all I need is a year,
Treasure: okay.
All you need is a year, and then- From, from your mouth to Goddess's ears ...
Amy: and then we'll start that band.
Treasure: Yes.
Amy: On, on September of 2027, we're starting a band. Asé. So mote it be. And blessed fucking be.
Treasure: Yes, blessed fucking be. I thought it would be like that. Upon hearing of that law, stand your ground. Hunger Games for real
Threatened. What does it take to feel
Didn't seem right
He was up to something
Amy: If you wanna support the Missing Witches project, come hang out with us. Join the coven. Find everything you need to know at missingwitches.com. Bewitched
Treasure: You must be a witch