Welcome Missing Witches Coven, and happy Lammas!! Today we celebrate the halfway point between the summer solstice and the fall equinox with a spiritual feast. I'm joined by Christina Cleveland, PhD, a social psychologist, public theologian, mystic-activist, a good friend, and author of some of our favourite books, including God Is a Black Woman, and the brand new life altering The Black Madonna: Icon of Resistance and Nourisher of Souls. I also invited a co-host today, another good friend, Reed Stephenson, another PhD, a former pastor working her way through deconstructing a lifetime of programming. Now she's a witch. We discuss freedom, liberation, how to make an altar of our tantrums, and opening up to a mothering force, in the space between accountability and unconditional love, where the Black Madonna holds us in her loving arms. Join us for a Lughnasadh party where we discover a profound love and nurturing, explore and affirm our own sacredness, and maybe even find God. www.missingwitches.com/lammas-2026-im-too-sacred-for-this-with-christena-cleveland
www.missingwitches.com/lammas-2026-im-too-sacred-for-this-with-christena-cleveland
Amy: Welcome Missing Witches Coven, and happy Lammas. Today we celebrate the halfway point between the summer solstice and the fall equinox with a spiritual feast. Today I'm joined by Christina Cleveland, PhD, a social psychologist, public theologian, mystic, activist, a good friend, and author of some of our favorite books, including God Is a Black Woman, and the brand new life altering The Black Madonna: Icon of Resistance and Nourisher of Souls.
I also invited a co-host today, another good friend, Reed Stephenson, another PhD, a former pastor working her way through deconstructing a lifetime of programming. Now she's a witch. Join us for a Lu-na-sha party Where we discover a profound love nurturing, and maybe even find God. If you wanna support the Missing Witches project, join the coven.
Come check out the new world we're building, the things that we're imagining and creating together. Go to missingwitches.com.
Intro: You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch.
You must be a witch.
Amy: Happy Lammas, and of course, Christina, happy birthday. I know it's coming up very, very soon. An early August Leo baby, and I know that you have brought your Leo energy to fill this space with your light. Also, thank you, Reed, for being here. As y'all heard in the introduction, Reed is, uh, a former pastor, an academic, and also, most importantly for this conversation, a Christina Cleveland super fan.
So, I've known you, Christina, for years. I've known you, Reed, for years. I hope that this can be like a coffee chat among friends about this deeply, deeply, deeply incredible book of yours, Christina, that just came out, The Black Madonna. I expected the book to be brilliant. It's you, and thoughtful, and personal, and historical.
But I was not prepared for how deeply and profoundly healing the book would be for me personally. You know, I, I recognize that not everything is for me, and that's okay. But the exercises that you put at the end of each chapter to help the reader integrate what you're talking about and the stories, I felt so held in the reading of this book.
And I mean, we'll go on, and I have a million quotes. I, I feel like this whole conversation is just gonna be me reading your own quotes back to you. But I want to open with, firstly, you need no introduction, but feel free to introduce yourself any way you please. And then if you could help us invoke the Black Madonna to open this conversation.
Christena: Thank you, Amy. And Reed, it's so glad to have you in this conversation. Um, I'm Christina. My last name is Cleveland. Um, I am a Black Madonna fanatic and student and mentee. I w- I'm lucky enough to write books about Black Madonna. I'm lucky enough to lead A tiny but potent Black Madonna spiritual community called the Black Madonna Freedom School.
And I'm just really grateful to be here today. I will say this is the first podcast conversation I'm gonna do for this book, so it feels really special. And I've only said yes to maybe half a dozen, um, because with God Is a Black Woman, I had a publicist who was booking a lot. And so, um, this is actually the only one that I did then that was booked by my publicist that I actually was excited to do and stayed connected with.
So it feels very beautiful to be starting, um, here with Missing Witches.
Amy: I mean, we just, we just love you, so.
Christena: Oh, well, I love you all, too. I'm a part of the coven, and I have been, and I've enjoyed. It just, yeah, it's just been a gift to me. So usually, you know, you go on a podcast and you're like, "Great, don't call me.
I'll call you." But with you all- Yes ... it's been different. So.
Amy: Yes.
Christena: Yeah. Um, so yeah, that's me. I'm really grateful to be here, and honored.
Amy: So each of the chapters of the Black Madonna begins with an invocation to the Black Madonna. So can we invoke her now?
Christena: Sure. Sure. I'll read, um, Invocation Four to start.
Amy: Thank you.
Christena: Um, yeah. Subterranean lady who holds the world in balance, you beckon us, the undermothered and overloaded, to swap our baggage for ease. Oh, supreme ease in your unfathomably strong and bountiful arms. Pregnant virgin, keeper of the cosmic crypt, neither void nor death can thwart your seed of life.
Impregnate us with your everlasting abundance as our burdened and barren souls drink from your holy well. Our Lady of the Labyrinth, you deftly deliver us just in the nick of time. When life's linear booby-trapped maze is set to discourage and detonate, you whisk us away to your circle where love is ever in bloom.
Miracle-working OBGYN, our resurrection doula, when toxic lies inseminate our body and soul, you pull death from our womb and deliver nothing but life, more life, indomitable life. Spiral seer, your cosmic hands are the gateway to life. You guide each stride, assuring your dear ones that every direction, north, south, east, or west, is anointed, tended, and lavished by you.
Ashe.
Amy: Oh, it's so beautiful, and I feel like your words have really brought the Black Madonna into this space, if she wasn't here already- Mm-hmm ... which she was. And the, the book is so much about love. Mm-hmm. About a kind of love that we can't even necessarily imagine. Um, you wrote so much about coming to this place where you could receive that love without being suspicious.
Reed, I think you have a quote. Reed and I, of course, have been talking about the- ... talking about the book to each other, and Reed sent me this.
Reed: Well, and this was something that, um, just stopped me in the middle, uh, of, of, of my reading. Uh, "In other words, profound love doesn't play games, keep the rec- keep the recipient guessing, or even require the recipient to decipher its meaning.
Profound love speaks directly to the recipient's deepest and even unconscious stories, affirming that they are cherished, embraced, protected, seen, and irreplaceable. Practically speaking, profound love is freely given and ever willing to go the distance in order to express itself." And then here's the part that just- Profound love doesn't lecture an unloved person with, "Once you learn to love yourself, others will love you."
No. Profound love says, "I see you. I see that you don't yet know that you are dearly loved. I will love you and keep loving you until you are so clothed in love that being loved and lovable becomes your deepest truth." Holy shit. That just, y- you know, being someone who, uh, has been looking for that kind of love in religious spaces for a really long time, thinking you've found it, only to have that, that love then suddenly come with conditions.
Well, I said it this way, or I meant it this way, or obviously you didn't understand. Um, but as someone who... And you talked about your, your, your, your, uh, Malcolm, uh, your nibling, um, who was throwing that tantrum. I am Malcolm so many times. I've seen Malcolm in me, and have been so ashamed of that. But to have you talk about how his mother helped him regulate, and how, um, you know, he was an altar for a wild, passing god.
I'd love to hear more about wild, passing god. But just to just sit in that knowledge and knowing that the ways that we were taught that love, uh, taught what w- what love was and the conditions, just to see that completely, no, that's, that's not the truth. So thank you for writing that, Christina.
Mm.
Amy: Mm. So, so talk to us a little bit about firstly, we'll get to Malcolm for sure, 'cause I wanna hear about how, how we all can create altars to wild, passing gods.
Um, but firstly, talk to us about profound love and what effect that accepting this or recognizing it can have on us and on our lives.
Christena: I, I, yeah. I mean, it's a journey for me, too. I read, thank you for reading those words out loud. Um, you know, I- It feels like a trap a lot of the times. It feels, um
I think so many of us have been hazed in spiritual spaces, had to jump through hoops, um, that tangle like what Reid talked about, you know, where it's like now it's here but n- then it's not because you did something but you don't know exactly what you did. Um, and so for me it has just been
Trying to be present to it without bringing my own
Ego defensive need to like make, to like offer something. To offer something. Um, and it's a constant, literally, like my, my daily meditation is, um... The Black Madonna of Einsiedeln is in Switzerland, and, um, when I went to visit her, um, for the first time like a year, little over a year ago, um, she's known as the, like Our Lady of the Ominously Dark Forest.
So like I had like a li- I was gonna brief her on the state of the world. Like I had a list of like global, regional, and personal issues that I was like, "Do you know? Like I know you're here in this like monastery, but like do you really know?" Like, and I whipped out my list, and all I could feel from her was shh.
He said, "I've been waiting for you to come since you were six years old."
'Cause I remember being at evangelical summer camp in the redwoods and h- and hearing a voice saying, "I'm right here, Christina. I'm right here, Christina." But I didn't know who it was. I thought it was, like, Casper the Friendly Ghost. 'Cause, like, I was like, "It c- it's not God 'cause God's male and scary, so, like, I don't know what this is."
But, like, I ... So then I immediately was like, oh, my gosh, that was you. So she's like, "Yeah. Yeah, I've been waiting for almost 40 years. I just want you to be here. I just want you to be here." And so then I was like ... I was almost be- I almost felt tortured in the moment, and this really brought to the surface how much I'm uncomfortable with unconditional embrace.
Because I was like, this is literally what I've been longing for a divine being to say to me my whole life, and now that I'm here doing it, I'm like, I don't like this. I want things to do. Like, I wanna show you. And so it was so uncomfortable. Now a lot of my daily practice is sitting with this little statue I have of hers and just receiving, just opening to the love.
I don't have to do anything. I don't have to ... Just my presence is a delight to you. Are you kidding? I can just sit here and, like, daydream, or my mind can wander, or I can talk to you about what's bothering me, or I can just literally do nothing. And so I've been doing that, and i- in that practice, I've decided to set up a little Black Madonna altar for my inner child.
And so I took, like, a caboodle case. You know the caboodle cases? It's, I don't know if you can make it- Oh, is it like a
Amy: makeup case?
Christena: Yeah. That like- Like a- ... we all had. Like, if you're, like, an elder Millennial, young, young Gen X-er like me, it's like we all had those in, like, sixth grade. So I made my little kiddy altar out of that so that, like, I can invite my inner child to sit with her, too.
And it's like, just sit here and play. She just delights in you playing and, like, having fun. And so my inner child's been helping me compose that altar and, like, what goes in it and ... But, you know, I just ... It's, it's been an ongoing ... It's really a daily practice for me. I mean- I'm an Enneagram 1, so I, I feel like I always need to do and perform and, um, and it's a const- yeah, I, I wish I had
yeah. I mean, I don't wish I had the answer, but I can just say it's a really beautiful unraveling. Hmm.
Amy: Yeah. I, I mean, there are so many different, like, forms of brainwashing that you talk about in the book. Yeah. Um, what you're talking about sounds to me like that capitalist brainwashing of you always need to be performing- Hustle
or offering, offering. Mm-hmm.
Christena: Offering something. Yeah. Everything has to be an exchange.
Amy: Yes.
Christena: Everything has to be a transaction.
Amy: Yes.
Christena: Um, even with the divine being. But I'm, I'm learning a lot about matriarchal studies. I m- you know, h- historical matriarchal studies and, you know, the maternal gift economy was not an equal exchange.
It was unilateral giving and unilateral receiving. And so this is the, this is the goddess model, you know? So it's just ... it's ... but it's, yeah, it's the unraveling.
Amy: Yeah.
Christena: Yeah. Yeah.
Amy: Let me ask this before we return to Malcolm. Mm-hmm. Um, you wrote, "There was just one enormous problem. I had been so deeply programmed by our modern-day plantation society that I didn't quite know how to be free."
Christena: Yeah.
Amy: I think that probably most of our listeners, most of the people I know, they want freedom, they want liberation, whatever that means to them, but they don't actually know what it looks like, maybe because our society has programmed us so far from any kind of real freedom or liberation. I do wanna say I checked.
The words free or freedom appear in The Black Madonna 105 times. So I wanna know, have you gotten any closer to, to knowing how to be free, and what, what- Oh,
Christena: absolutely. Yeah.
Amy: So tell us,
Christena: what is it? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's still an ongoing journey, but I mean, so much, so much growth and release. Um, h- so- I'm s- so I'll, I'll say it this way.
One of the, um, young y- y- younger folks who's worked with me for a few years said, "If there's anything that I can walk away with knowing for sure having worked with you, is that I can walk into any space and immediately be like, 'I'm too sacred for this.'"
And so I think that is embodying that energy of, of, A, knowing I am inherently sacred. It is my birthright. I don't need anybody to confer that on me. I don't need anybody to legitimize that. I don't need anybody to co-sign on that. And also to be able to remove myself from situations with, with confidence that Black Madonna is going to provide what I need, that I don't have to stay in a plantation situation or a plantation relationship or anyth- or a plantation spirituality.
I can take that uncertain, unknown step off. So I think it's the combination of knowing I'm sacred and moving on it. I can do that so much faster. I can do that so much, with so much more confidence in the universe, which I, which I've decided is Black Madonna's body. You know what I mean? And so I'm like, okay.
I, I, I'm not going to... I just feel like I made so many decisions in the past because I thought I had to in order to pay my bills, in order to keep health insurance. I'm in the US, where, you know. In order to feel loved or in order to have the s- stability of a relationship or, you know. I just made so many decisions in order to be significant.
And now I'm just like, "No, I'm too sacred for this, and we out."
Amy: Yeah. That we, we are allowed to make these decisions for ourselves. I wanna thank you again, and I told you this. I, I read page one of The Black Madonna, and in this you, you are sort of conjuring, uh, a, an enslaved ancestor who looked at her situation and said, "I'm too sacred for this."
And then it's a theme that c- carries on through the book. And I just want you to know that- Mm ... "I'm too sacred for this" immediately became a catchphrase. Reed, you can attest to this. Oh, I can. I can. I took a screenshot. I- Mm-hmm ... I sent it to, like, group texts. Mm. Like, "Christina Cleveland's got the new we're not saying I'm too old for this anymore.
We're not saying ... We are saying I'm too sacred for this." Too
Christena: sacred for this. Yeah.
Reed: Yeah. If-
Christena: Yeah. That birthright sacredness, you know? Yeah. That's just been ripped from us. But that, I mean, that's our ... What I love about Black Madonna and the fact that Black Madonna is forever is, like, this is our deepest DNA.
Like, there's been ep- there's been genetic DNA pile, you know, on top of that. But our, it's, it's, this is who we really are I'm like, wow, that's really powerful to me. Um, and it's a daily. I mean, it's again one of those daily things where it's like I'm too sacred to be stressing over what that person thinks of me.
Yeah. I'm too sacred to you know what I mean? Like, it shows up in all these ways. Um, yeah, so.
Reed: There's something that I've, I feel, uh, that's in this I'm too sacred. Um, it's part permission until you realize, like, there is this acceptance like you were talking about, that it's in our very DNA. Mm-hmm. Um, and one of the things as I was reading, uh, your book, I felt myself even still...
I only rescinded my credentials in, of ordination not, not quite six years ago, so I'm still, even though I was deconstructing long before I left the church. Uh, grew up, uh, Church of God Pentecostal, Cleveland, Tennessee, so all of that.
Oh, yeah,
yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All of, all of that-
Okay,
mm-hmm ...
uh,
bullshit, you know- Yeah, mm-hmm
still kind of, uh, sits in my body. So I felt myself going, "Okay, I want this. I, I want- Mm ... to believe this," but I'm still the, the phrase that comes to my mind is that line from Girls Against God from Florence + The Machine. Mm. "What a thing to admit that when someone looks at me with real love, I don't like it very much.
It kind of makes me feel like I'm being crushed." Mm. Um, so those- Mm-hmm ... that, like, feeling the weight. And I know I'm using my hands a lot, um, some people can't see, but feeling the weight, like, come down on you of this love.
Christena: Right. That's how I felt with Our Lady of Ein Seiden. You know? I was just like, "Take it away."
Like you know? Yeah, yeah. But here's the thing, but I think, but I, and I, I say this in our school all the time, Black Madonna's trauma-informed.
Reed: Mm.
Christena: Like, she gets it. She's like, "Girl, I get it." Like, I... It's not per- She doesn't take it personally. She's like, "We can go at the pace that works for you."
Reed: Yeah.
Christena: You don't have to prove, and even that you don't have to prove.
You don't even have to receive my love. You know what I mean? Like, you don't even have to be ready to trust. You don't have to be... Like, I love how she's so just like, "I'll meet you where you are."
Reed: Yeah.
Christena: Like, "And I'm not trying to rush you. I'm not trying... You don't have to..." You know, s- especially in, like, a lot of Christian patriarchal spaces, it's like you have to, um, be vulnerable before it's actually safe to do that.
Mm-hmm. As a, as, as a way to prove that you are committed. Yeah. And she's like, "You don't have to do that." She's like- You're triggered, I get it. I, and I'm per- and I, and I'm not gonna be like, "But not all gods." You know what I mean? Or whatever. Right. You know what I mean? Like ... Right.
Reed: Right. Yeah. And, and just the difference.
Get
Christena: it, you
Reed: know?
Christena: Like ...
Reed: Yeah ... th- there's a huge difference, and the way that you are introducing us to the Black Madonna- Mm-hmm ... um, is really helpful in that way. Thank you for reminding me the trauma informed part, because my hypervigilance keeps wanting to go, "Nope, can't, can't trust." Mm-hmm. And so, um, but as I have kind of in my journey thought about, uh, the divine feminine and the Black Madonna, I am finding that I do have little statues that will show up.
Someone will go, "Here. Try this. Do this. Do that." And so it's like ... And I'm going to be in Spain in November, not very far from the Black Madonna- Mm ... of Montserrat. So- Mm-hmm ... already planning to go Excellent, yeah I'm gonna, I'm gonna put myself into it, Christina. I'm gonna try it, because it is our fucking birthright.
It is our birthright. Mm-hmm. And so thank you for just-
Christena: Mm ...
Reed: I, I, sharing, like saying, "Hey. Look at, look at this. We can have it." And it's r- it's so beautiful.
Intro: Yeah.
Reed: Yeah. Ugh.
Amy: We, we can have it, but I do wanna firmly underscore, um, the idea that Black Madonna is Black beyond- Yeah ... speculation. Yeah. So maybe she is for everyone, but, um, I mean-
Christena: It's a both and.
Amy: Yeah. Yeah.
Christena: She's like ... It's ... And I think people really struggle to understand that. I mean, oh, you should see how much people don't lo- in the traditional Black Madonna community don't love that I've really highlighted and positioned her as Black, you know?
Amy: Yes.
Christena: Um, 'cause they don't wanna deal with it, whatever.
Anyways, but-
Amy: And there was that, that one thing about like, oh, she's just been discolored by the soot- Yeah ... from candles. Yeah.
Reed: Come on. Right. Every, every single one? Every single one?
Amy: Every ... And just the face and just the neck. Yeah,
Reed: yeah.
Christena: Yeah. Yeah.
Reed: Yeah.
Christena: Yeah. And so, you know, but, but I think ... Here's what I think about knowing that you're truly sacred.
It's not an escapist. It's not spiritual bypassing. If you truly know that you're sacred, you're gonna be like Harriet Tubman, and you're gonna spend the rest of your life going back and making sure that as many people possible know that they're sacred too. And so I think, you know, people who are uncomfortable with the Black Madonna's Blackness are uncomfortable with being accountable to their birthright sacredness.
But if we truly are sacred, then we would want everybody to have that, and we would fight to the death for everybody to have that. 'Cause what is life if you're not sacred? And so, you know, the Black Madonna... And, and, and that c- I mean, that's, that's for everybody. That's for me as a cis Black woman, because Black Madonna is Black and trans, you know?
And so it's like I can't just be like, "Oh, yeah, she's, she's sh- I'm sacred," and then you white people have to do your work. It's like, no, I have to do my work, right? Like, we all have, we all have ways in which Black Madonna is saying, "There's more love, and I want you to embody it."
Amy: Thank you for the segue. I wanted to bring up this because, I mean, again, the, the book encompasses so much.
You know, you, you trace Black liberation through, like, Congolese, um- ... enslaved people, rebellion, and Harriet Tubman. Which was
Reed: so
Amy: cool. And March on- Which was so
Reed: cool ... and
Amy: very cool. But you wrote, "Harriet," Harriet Tubman, "Harriet understood that love and accountability are two sides of the same coin." I mean, that's what you were just talking about, but say more.
Say more. Say more. Yeah.
Christena: Well, I mean, love is a verb too, and I've... You know, Bell Hooks said that, so you know I'm not making this up. And it doesn't, it, it's about... B- love is about healing and connection. It's not about feeling good. And so I think Black M- in Black Madonna, I mean, sh- Black Madonna is a typic- a, is, is a good mother.
She wants us to be well. She wants us to be on the path that is right for us. You know, we, it, we, we get to be, we get to co-create that with her, so it's not like she's telling us. It's not patriarchal, right? She's not telling us, but she wants us to be free, and those are things that we can't do without accountability.
Um, and I mean, even, like, w- you know, even in the, in the communities that I'm in, the hard conversations are the ones that help me be more free. The accountability is what helps me be more free. The accountability is help- helps me go beyond just I, I wanna be this kind of leader to I am actually embodying this type of leader.
And without that, you know, and I just think y- there's, uh, we live in this society where I, I mean, I kinda get it because life is hard. Like, life is so violent. We're overloaded. And also, if we don't have... So I, so I can see why people are constantly turning to spirituality as, like, a, as a warm blanket, you know?
Um, but that's on- I mean, that to me, that just feels like a Band-Aid. And also, if you are, if you're not a Black trans woman, if you're not, like, a poor Black trans woman who's probably disabled too and all these, and a bunch of other things, and you're going to the Black Madonna for just comfort, that's just mammyism.
That is literally just mammyism Because sh- she, that, that historically- She's, she's not, she's not the magical Negro who's gonna show up and- No. And historically- ... and solve your problems ... right. Right, and I, in the book I talk about how, you know, this, this, this, this sacred dark goddess image is, like, written into our consciousness, our co- collective consciousness.
Like, Carl Jung said it, but, okay. But, like, the most enduring stereotype of Black women in the world is the mammy.
Reed: Yes.
Christena: Which just goes to show how much our society is uncomfortable with the unconscious, you know? And so that's why I'm like, if any time we're mammy-fying her, we're really just literally Like abusing her sacred Black feminine body.
And so I, so I think the love and accountability has to come through in, in Black Madonna devotion because otherwise it's not ... It's just like white patriarchal God in blackface. It's just gross, you know? Yeah. Um, and we can all, we can all fall into that.
Reed: Yeah. That's really helpful, Christina, the way that, that you said that.
Like, um, there's something happening in the spiritual community right now online where there's a lot of, uh, spiritual bypassing and people who have been respected in the community that are, um, creating content for, uh, less than above board type things. And so there's this big, uh, conversation around spiritual bypassing and accountability that I see people going, "Well, we're just gonna write them off because they're that."
Mm. And I ... There is a thing of not giving your attention to that kind of content, but I'm just gonna put it out here. As I've been reading the book as a white lady, I'm like, I don't ... Like, the, the tension that I felt going, I am a white lady, I'm gonna come to this person. I'm doing my work. Am I ... Like, how do I
I don't want to use the word negotiate, but how do I develop this? Uh- Navigate. How do I ... Yeah. N- navigate. How do I navigate this? Especially, uh, and I hope this makes sense, but back in spiritual communities that I was part of, one of the reasons I s- I, I could no longer be a priest is because I didn't believe the creed.
I couldn't stand in front of someone and say the creed. Mm-hmm. I was like, "Can't do it. Don't believe it. Not gonna ask people to do it." But there is this thing of not spiritual bypassing, but sharing lack of accountability in that you don't have to understand it right now because I understand it, so I've got you.
Mm-hmm. Or someone else in the crowd. W- what, what, how does that play into this cauldron? Or, I mean, do you have any thoughts or comments on that? I did ask a couple questions right in there. So I talked about my discomfort not wanting to practice mammyism, but also- Yeah ... the spiritual bypass that happens in the wider spiritual community.
And the lack of accountability. Well, you already answered that question. I'm gonna proceed.
Christena: Yeah, I mean, I, well, I, I think I, I'm, I'm not sure I quite perfectly understand your question, but I'm wondering if you're, what you're getting at is how, um, I'll say white, white people as an example, in, um... M- some might have more awareness and understanding- Mm-hmm
but they're not holding the other white people accountable.
Reed: Yes.
Christena: So it's enabling.
Reed: Yes.
Christena: When really that's the work that, that's your work. Okay.
Amy: Yeah. Is, is, is there, is there a tension between accountability and un- the unconditional part of unconditional love? Hmm. Is accountability a condition of unconditional love?
Hmm,
Christena: interesting. Thanks,
Reed: Amy. That's helpful.
Christena: That's a really, that's a good question. Yeah, I don't, I, yeah, I, I, I really hesitate to define unconditional love. Um, here's what I th- I feel... My experience of Black Madonna is that she doesn't follow her own rules. Hmm. So sh- I feel like she does what that person needs.
Um, I remember when I was a professor, 'cause I was a professor for 11 years, and one of my department chairs who I respected a lot said, um, "You do what the student needs. If the student needs lenience, if that's what's gonna serve the student in this moment, give them lenience. If holding them to the syllabus and doubling down, do that."
Like, so kind of a case by case, and I kinda feel like Black Madonna does that. I also think, though, and here's where it gets even more complicated, 'cause she's a bit of a trickster. Um, and she's, she's, she's, um, she's innovative. She's not slippery, k- not flaky, but she's innovative, you know? Um, and so, you know, 'cause you obviously have these experien- you see these stories of, like, Black Madonna disappearing people, right?
Like, so obviously, you know, in, in our collective consciousness, there's an experience of Black Madonna who is be- holding people quite accountable, right? Um, and also I'm starting to think and believe that-
Her, her, quote, "killing them" is based on their perception of her.
Intro: Hmm.
Christena: Is based on their limitations. And so it's like if the only way they can interact with the divine is in this violent way, that's part of their psych- Like, um, I'm, I'm blanking on the word that I'm, that I, that I'm, I'm wanting to use. But like, it's almost like we co-create the god space with her, and so how she shows up has a lot to do with our own, um, archetypes and our o- And so I'm wondering if these super violent patriarchal men in medieval France- Could only experience her as someone who disappeared them, and therefore they
Like, maybe if it, if they were different, they could, it could've been a conversation. Because there's another story in Spain, also in the medieval times, where a woman was ... And I tell it in the book, I think in the final chapter, where a woman was, um, b- her husband was cheating on her with a local, so with, you know, with a woman in the village, and Black Madonna appeared to them, and they were able to, to resolve things amicably and non-violently, right?
So it's like, I kind of want ... It's like, how is our expectation of her, how is our, um, the boxes we put her in, how do those impact our experience of her? So is she violent, or are we violent, right? Like, is she ... You know, like, I, yeah, that's the question.
Reed: That made so much sense to me. Thank you. Mm-hmm. I, that, that, um, you said you were an Enneagram 1.
I'm an Enneagram 8. Mm. I wake up in the morning ready to fight somebody. Mm-hmm.
Christena: Um, so- I feel like 8s wake up and they're just like, "Bullshit," to everything. Yeah. Like, good morning, bullshit.
Reed: Yeah. Like- I'm gonna prove you wrong ... what are you mad about? So many things. Uh, so what I hear you saying about, and like how we are co-creating our spaces, so knowing, you know, showing, coming to the Black Madonna going, "I am a white cis lady.
I wanna do my work so that I can honor the sacred in everybody. Um, and can you hold my anger, please?" Mm-hmm. "Because it's killing me." Um-
Christena: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Reed: Yeah. That, that kind of thing. Yeah.
Christena: Mm.
Reed: And continuing- Oh,
Christena: I was gonna say, circling back to that, I, I w- I think the word I was thinking of was projection.
Reed: Mm.
Christena: Like, it was their projection of her, right? Mm. That killed them.
Reed: Mm-hmm.
Christena: Yeah. Rather than necessarily she killed them, if that makes sense. Yeah.
Reed: Yeah. So. I, and I appreciated those stories. I also appreciated, um, the Our Lady, uh, of Charity, and how- Mm ... you were talking about how h- it had to be that the Black Madonna sh- showed up to this person who worked for the king, but then also- Mm-hmm
was enslaved. Mm. And how those connections to those people and those bodies and those social situations were able- Mm ... to spread. Um- Yeah.
Christena: Mm-hmm ...
Reed: yeah. So.
Christena: And it was ... Um, her love was so strategic, so personalized.
Reed: Mm-hmm.
Christena: Um, and you know, this is something we talk about all the time in my community, like- You know, if you are at that place where you feel abandoned, 'cause like of course we do, right?
Like, you know, we're all dealing with illusions of divine abandonment, like all the time, and everything in our culture is like poking at that. So we might, we might get to like a point where we're like, "Okay, I kinda feel safe in this moment," and then we walk outside and something happens, and we're like back to, "God, are you there?"
Right? Like, um, so we're all constantly fighting this. And so I ... You know what? We just start... I'm like, "Black Madonna, I need receipts right now. Like help me. Help me believe. Show me in a super personal way that I cannot rationalize away, I cannot ... You know, show me that you know me, you know what I need, and you got me."
And I think that's what she did for the Cuban, for the Afro-Cuban folks. She's like, "I'm gonna show up looking like you. I'm gonna show up acting like you. I'm gonna strategically connect with the people that you, that have credibility with you." You know? Like it's so generous.
Amy: And in, in this story, um, Black Madonna is also the orisha Oshun.
Christena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy: She is- Yeah ... all things. Yeah. Yeah. You said this turn of phrase, illusions of divine abandonment. So I have to ask this- Yeah ... on behalf of the Missing Witches coven. We have been talking so much about deity. A lot of us either come- Mm-hmm.
Christena: I heard that. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Amy: Yeah.
Christena: Yeah.
Amy: From like, uh, we have either been traumatized by- Mm-hmm
you know, an unhealthy and abusive church system. Mm-hmm. Or we come in s- we believe in science, and we're militant atheists. Mm-hmm. And there is this crumbling I am seeing of the illusion of divine abandonment where people are coming to me and saying, and this is happening to me too, are saying, "I picked up working with this deity as a lark.
I figured it couldn't hurt. Worth an experiment, and now these things are happening. These things are falling into place. These problems are being solved without my interference." And, and o- one coven mate said to me, "Am I a deist? Like do I believe in God?" In this almost horrified- Mm-hmm ... confused way. Mm-hmm.
So I ask you, Christina Cleveland, are gods, is God real? Is it a symbol that we've created of the connection that we're making with each other? Is it an avatar? What, what is God?
Christena: Mm.
Amy: It's a small question.
Christena: Yeah. Yeah. Um-
I'm gonna say it doesn't matter to me Now, I don't have... I mean, I, I, you know, I might be in a different place than people who, for whom, you know, it really is important for them to have some semblance of certainty, or even not certainty, but just geography around it maybe, you know? But, um, here's, here's why I believe in Black Madonna and wh- believe that God is a Black woman who affirms the sacredness of all people.
Because it makes me a kinder, softer, more courageous person
Amy: Big deep exhale over here. Please keep talking.
Christena: Yeah, that's, that's... It doesn't matter. What matters is how I show up in this world that desperately needs my gifts in a gentle but fiery, in a loving but stir- stirring shit up way. And I can't... I've done it. I've done it on my own. I've done it without having this conception of a divine being.
I've done it without having, um, you know, whe- whe- whether she's a figment of our imagination, whether she's a projection, whether she's, you know, pieced together by our collective consciousness. I have a place where I can safely lay my burdens down and where I can right-size my ego and also be empowered to do the healing work that I'm called to do without, without taking on responsibilities that are not mine, without, without playing God, without needing to be a savior.
I'm blessedly replaceable, but also absolutely irreplaceable at the same time, and she makes that possible for me
Amy: What an incredible spiritual teacher you are. Um, we've talked about Malcolm, and I don't want to leave that thread- Talk I don't want to leave that thread dangling in the wind for listeners who are like, "What about Malcolm?" People
Christena: are gonna be like, "Who's Malcolm? Malcolm X? Malcolm..." Yeah.
Amy: So tell us whatever you want to tell us about Malcolm.
Also, my question is, how can my tantrum be an altar?
Christena: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, so Malcolm's my little nibbling. Um, he is now about to be six. Um, we have the same birthday, so he's about to be six, I'm about to be 46. Um- He, yeah, you know? He, he likes to... He, he, he has his tantrums. He, he, you know what I love about those kids?
There are four of them, but like what I love is they actually get to be kids. Like, like, like they get to be humans with like real feelings and confusion, and like it's okay that they don't know how to communicate their needs, and it's okay. You know? I love that. It's triggering, though, because I go and spend time with them, and I get so angry that they are just running wild.
And so I, so every single day when I go visit them, I have my own little, um, studio apartment in their basement. They call it Auntie Nina's, Auntie Nina's room. And, um, so I'll go to, I'll get triggered when I see how gracious their parents are, you know? Because it's just so, it's s- that was not how I was raised.
And so it's ac- and so I, I, I've been learning to ask myself, and this is where I think it's the altar piece, right? Like, I've been learning to ask myself, why exactly am I triggered? Because this kid's not a threat to me. I am not threatened. Like, I'm safe. And I was talking to Black Madonna, and Black Madonna said, "You're mad that he's getting unconditional love because you don't believe you deserve it."
Amy: Damn.
Christena: And I was like- Hurts ... yes, you are right. So I actually, um, I was there f- I'm usually there for a couple weeks at a time 'cause they live out in California, so, and I live in Minnesota, so I don't s- you know, I don't live near them. But, um, I, I actually ended up every single time I would get triggered by one of those four little gremlins, um, doing things that, you know, were the, doing the most and still getting loved, I would go back to my little room, and I would write a four-line stanza to Black Madonna.
So I'll read a couple of them to you if you, if you don't mind. I pulled them up on my laptop. Um- Oh, yes
Reed: please.
Christena: Yeah, so, um, it's, I've just, I just called it a spell for re-parenting, and every day I would, um, go, go, you know, I was, I was adding to it every single day. So I'll just, I'll just read a few stanzas.
Um, if they seem repetitive, it's because they are. Okay, so, um-
Amy: Repetitive in the way that, like, a mantra is repetitive.
Christena: Exactly. Right, yes. Exactly. Exactly. Um, so here's stanza one. Black Madonna loves to mother me. I am not a burden to her. She delights in guiding my every step because I am her treasured child.
Another one. Black Madonna loves to mother me. When my rage erupts like lava, she spelunks my inner volcano and quells the blazing fire.
Another one. I'll read the, the third one. Um, Black Madonna loves to mother me. She will never neglect or reject me. I can bring her my childish concerns. Yes, she loves to respond to my needs. And the last one. There's like 17, but here's the last one. I am Black Madonna's child. She will never regret me. My deepest truth is that I belong to her and that she loves to mother me.
So I think, you know, the, the thing about having an altar to a wild passing god is that you can take those really dysregulated moments and bring them to that god and place them on the altar and just say, "What are, what are you showing me? How can I be more free?" How can I be more free? Because I don't have to hide this from you.
I don't have to pretend like I'm more chill than I am. I don't have to pretend like I'm more mature than I am. I don't have to pretend like I trust you more than I do, or I know you more than I do. I can just be honest and then see what comes out of that. Um, and so th- it's been giving me a chance to re-parent myself, and also, um, w- weave a, I mean, a attachment theory so problematic and colonial.
But, you know, weave a secure connection to the deity of my, of my heart's desire, you know? Um, because I've- that's- I didn't get that as a child, not from my parents and not from white male God. White male God was like, "You are a burden." White male God was like, "I hate having to anything to do with you." White male God was like, "You better, you better make yourself useful to me or else I will literally kick you to the curb and banish you to hell."
You know? So I'm re- And, and
Amy: I'm gonna test you with-
Christena: I'm gonna test you ... we're gonna kill your son. Uh-huh. Exactly. Uh. Exactly. And so it's just like, you know, I, um, it's, it's a k- that's we get to bring these... And, you know, my tantrums are more around, um, un- feeling unloved, right? But other people's might be around other things, including, you know, given the context of a lot of people in this call, it could be around whiteness.
I, I, I was a white mother again. Hmm. I did that white mom thing. Mm-hmm. I did that Karen thing. I did that, you know what I mean? And it's like, okay, well, bring that-
Intro: Mm-hmm ...
Christena: to the altar of the wild passing God. You don't have to hide that. Like, it, it, Black Madonna wants us to be free. She'll tell you the truth-
Intro: Mm-hmm
Christena: but I've never ever, ever felt shamed by her.
Intro: Mm.
Christena: Even when she's- Mm ... like s- straight up, "Look, here's what I see," it's always, I always feel, A, loved, and, B, supported. I- she never says so much that I'm, like, overwhelmed and, like, I don't even know where to begin. It's always like, yeah, that challenge, but a lot of support, too.
Yeah. And so th- I question, you know, if you're feeling, if you're hearing shame, I'm like, hmm, I would check my own projections if I'm, if I'm feeling shame from Black Madonna. Um, so yeah.
Amy: I, I re- I mean, it's all a lot. You're contending with the whole universe. Um
Christena: Oh, I know. Matthew Fox was like, "You're writing a cosmology."
Yeah.
Amy: Yeah.
Christena: Like, he, you know, he, I mean, he was just like, "This is a cosmology. You're ... It's not theology, it's not art." Like, this ... He's like, "This is the, this is the big stuff that you're trying to do." Yeah.
Amy: And truly, like, uh, what I did not expect from your newest book, The Black Madonna, available now, everyone buy it, um, and why I will recommend it to everyone I know regardless of anything- Mm
about them is that I ... I mean, a lot of us were not mothered or parented in the way- Mm ... that we wanted to be or f- Mm ... needed to be. And I found in your book, Real or Imaginary, a, a mother.
Christena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amy: Um, a mother that's gonna mother me the way- Mm ... that I want or need to be-
Christena: Mm.
Amy: Mm ... mothered. Yeah. And again, it, I, it doesn't feel like a draining
Like, I'm never gonna drain her of- Mm. Mm ... the amount of love and compassion that she has, no matter how many tantrums I have. Um, she's always gonna have the energy for me. And just even, like I say, conceptually, having a place to put that mother void- Mm.
Christena: Mm ...
Amy: or having something to put into that mother void maybe.
Christena: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Amy: I mean, again, the same kind of thing happened with God is a Black Woman, but this is the next level for me of reading your work and feeling so- relieved-
Christena: Mm ...
Amy: I think maybe is the word, that you were articulating this thing that I had been longing for and longing for and longing for. So I just profoundly thank you for that.
And listeners, like, just go buy this book. Whatever hesitation you're having, whatever, you know, programming has told you- ... maybe this isn't the book for you is incorrect. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This, um, I know not everything is for everyone, but this book is for everyone.
Christena: Oh, Black Madonna's for everyone.
Amy: Black Madonna is- Yeah
for everyone.
Christena: Yeah. Yeah, and I love, I love hearing that too, your experience of mothering, 'cause, 'cause... And that's the thing that I love about Black Madonna, you know. 'Cause, you know, with God Is a Black Woman, I use she/her pronouns for her. Um, I, I, I really think Black Madonna's pronouns are they/them, we/us.
But, like, I, um, I- one of the things that I really like about Black Madonna too is, like, she will... She's such a good shape-shifter. Mm. She's such a powerful shape-shifter that, you know, like recently she was like, "I'll be your daddy until you realize you don't need one." You know what I mean? Like, she, it's like she w- like, what, s- she wants us to be free.
She wants us to be free, and she's the divine parent, you know, among other things.
Reed: Yeah. And that's what I'm gonna take from- ... from, from the, from your book and from this convers- So God Is a Black Woman was so revolutionary for me because it, you know, 2022, I'm, I'm in the height of my deconst- well, not the height.
I mean, the probably, you know what I'm saying. And writing a dissertation about leaving the church. And so to have someone define what the white male God is, white male sky daddy, I mean, the, like, having that language. But now this transition, and it may be not even a transition, I don't wanna... You have a word for, for what has happened between that book and now this book.
I was really curious just reading, uh, like- Because it's, it's a continuation, and there's nothing in God is a Black Woman that isn't in The Black Madonna. But very, like, different ways of looking. So I'm, I'm, I was curious about that when I was reading. Like, as much as you or as little as you wanna share, what happened between 2022 and 2026, uh, in the way that- Well-
you evolved?
Christena: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a couple ... well, a few things. Um, one, um, y- I was actually preparing for ... it, it was a li- it changed my life. I was preparing for the podcast with you, Amy. I had never heard of Missing Witches, and so I was like, "Oh, you know what? Like, I wanna listen to a few." So I looked for the Black people podcasts, and Nadra, Nadra Nittle, was being interviewed.
And, um, that's when she- The, the Bell Hooks
Intro: scholar ...
Christena: Bell, yeah, right. Mm-hmm. She's a Bell Hooks and Toni Morrison scholar. But she hadn't written the Bell Hooks book yet. It was, um, I think she was wr- she was on the podcast talking about the Toni Morrison book. But she, she made a side comment saying, "But Bell Hooks was a devotee of The Black Madonna."
And I was like, "What?" 'Cause Bell Hooks has what, like 80 books? Who's read them all? Not me, right? So, so, like, I, I was like, "What?" And ever since that moment, I found the book Um, read, read the book. It's from 2006, you know. Um, and I read about Black- about bell hooks' devotion to Black Madonna. And so basically from when I read that book, which was maybe, like, February 2022, right around when God Is a Black Woman came out, um, every morning I would wake up, and I was living alone on 28 acres in a cabin in New Hampshire at the time, but every morning I would wake up and I would hear bell hooks saying, "Reclaim the Black Madonna.
Reclaim the Black Madonna for Black people." And I actually wrote a whole book proposal on anti-racism going back into my safe place, because God Is a Black Woman was not my safe place. It was so vulnerable. It was so traumatic putting that book out into the world, right? That I was just like, "I'm gonna go back to my, like, professor hat, my, like, I have answers hat, you know, this is what my PhD is in, this is what I do."
Um, and, uh, thankfully I have a great agent. I sent her the proposal and she's like, "This ain't it." Like actually she's just an honest, wonderful human. So then I just had to listen to this bell h- and bell hooks' haunting, loving haunting, which I also think is Black Madonna who wants me to be free, right? And so I would say that, you know, that, that was very powerful and that, that led to me to really wanting to write a book that offered a Black Madonna spirituality for Black people by Black people.
Um, but then also, um, you know, frankly, you know, God Is a Black Woman was a massive failure, um, commercially- Um, and, um, there were all sort, there was all sorts of hype and high hopes around it. I had a large contract with Harper. Um, it did not, I m- I mean, who know, like yeah, I'm not anywhere near paying back my advance.
Um, so- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... so, so when I brought the book, you know, I had to bring my next book back to Harper, and they were just like, "Hell to the no." You know, like- Yeah, we already lost money- You still owe us money ... on
Amy: you, kid.
Christena: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, and so, um, so you know, that whole experience was really hard on me because so mu- it was good.
It was hard in the good way, right? Because my, so much of my ego was intertwined with that book and I needed to be more free. You know? I needed to be more free. I, I had, I had made so many, um, I'm the kinda person who I, I, I do what I'm writing. And so like, I personally made a lot of changes in my life while writing that book in order to be able to write that book with integrity.
You know, I left a marriage, I significantly altered family relationships, I left church community. You know, I did a lot, and I didn't really know at the time that, um, the success of that book was my way of saying, "See? It's, it was worth it," when really it was worth it for my freedom. I don't need the American marketplace- To, um, to say it was worth it.
Again, right, it's like this... I'm s- I'm my, my birthright sacredness. I don't need anybody else to co-sign on my f- on the, the value of my freedom, you know? But these are the ways in which, like, it's this constant getting free. It's this constant. And luckily, I had scheduled to go stay with my niblings for, like, a month at that time, so like in March 2022.
So I'm in the depths of, like, f- feeling like a huge failure, feeling like I put my whole life out there, and, like, the market was like, "Meh," right? Um, and w- what's, what's really a fun coincidence is Matthew Fox is this theologian who's, uh, become a mentor of mine. He lives, um, he happens to live in the same town as my niblings.
So whenever I see them, I see him. So I, I went for a long walk by the Califor- um, you know, California shore, and he just said, um, he said, um, to me, "This is, um, this is the purifying work. Like, you're lucky that it hasn't gone the way you want it to, because this is, this is how it's, it's healing your ego." You know?
And so that was... It was helpful to have some perspective, too, from s- from an elder who was able to just kinda be like, "Yeah," like, "This is what's needed." So I think it was i- it was helpful. All of these things led to this book, where I really just wanted it to be an offering. You know? I really, like... And I, you know, this book obviously has a lot less of me in it.
Like, I think Malcolm's in it more than I am, you know what I mean? In terms of, like... And plus Malcolm, I, I deposit money into their... Whenever I use their stories, I deposit money into their college fund. Nice. Just so, like... Just 'cause I'm like, "I'm not trying to exploit Malcolm either," you know? But, like, the stories are good.
Um, but, like, you know, I, it, it was one of those things where it was intentional. It's like I wanna tell this story of the Black Madonna, particularly, and, you know, the story of Black people and the Black Madonna. I don't want it to be... And I want it to be in service of more Black people and everybody, 'cause if it's good for Black people, it's good for everybody.
Um, feeling like they can claim her and be transformed by her. Um, and I feel like God Is a Black Woman was so much my story, which isn't bad, but it, it, I think it, it might've been hard for people to see, well, what's my path to Black Madonna? Like, I'm not, I'm not crazy enough to walk 400 miles across central France without knowing any French or knowing anything about being in the outdoors.
Amy: But luckily- So what- ... Christina Cleveland is.
Christena: But so then I kinda like, "What's in it?" Like, how do I connect? Which is why I was like, "Oh, let's do practices. Let's do, you know, invocations." And I've never written poetry before, so that was ch- you know, one of those vulnerable things. But it was fun. So.
Reed: Thank you for, thank you for sharing that- Yeah
that piece of your story. The
Christena: ego.
Reed: Um, I am, I am sorry that it was a commercial fail- failure. I don't, I don't see how, because for me it was so life-giving. And now Black Madonna is the next iteration. And so to go and sit with the exercises, especially, um, I was taking ... I still have it in my notes, but the, the ones in the first two chapters where you're writing out what you need, and you're write- and you're coming up with nicknames for her.
Um, that was really, really helpful. Mm. And one that's rising for me right now is, um, she who's not gonna be mad when I'm mad.
Christena: Mm.
Reed: Um, that's-
Christena: And also she who's gonna be mad when you're mad.
Reed: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And see, there's more of that nuance. Um, yeah. Wow, Christina. Yeah. This has been just incredible- Oh
just to be able to sit with you- It's such a gift ... and hear about
Christena: this. She, she's so revelatory. Mm. She turns me inside out while at the same time, I wouldn't even say patching me up. Like, what's, what's so ... Something that's so much more thoughtful and proactive. She knits me, you know? Like, it's just ... And I think I could you know, dwell in her realms forever
You know, I remember, I remember reading the psalmist and being like, you know, one day in your house is worth a thousand elsewhere, and I'd be like, I don't really feel that way, but I'll sing the song. You know what I mean? Like, I, I- And it sounds boring as hell ... and I'm a bad, yeah, I'm a bad person for not feeling that way, but as soon as church is over, I'm ready to go.
I wanna go to the mall. You know, I'm a teen or whatever. And now I'm like, actually, like, other than the fact that I can be wildly, I can feel wildly naked and uncomfortable, I'm still drawn here.
Reed: Mm.
Christena: I still wanna be here, and I wanna get comfortable being here. You know? Get comfortable with being naked with the divine.
Um, I don't know.
Amy: Um, thank you so much for your time, both of you. Today we are celebrating Lammas, which is the- Yeah ... halfway point between the summer solstice and the autumn equinox. It is a time of abundance and protection spells, and the leavening of not only bread, but also liberation. Do you have maybe a bumper sticker version of how our listeners can incorporate Black Madonna into a Lammas celebration that they might be having today?
Christena: I wonder if there's a way for people to honor her as the mother of abundance, the source without source. Yeah.
Amy: Yes.
Christena: I think I would wanna ask myself
How is Black Madonna sourcing me today, and how can I honor and give gratitude for that? And then pass it on so it's multiplied. Yeah.
Amy: You're perfect. I don't wanna kiss your ass too much- ... but I do believe that you will be joining this rank of bell hooks- Yes ... Audre Lorde, Christina Cleveland, the- Yeah ... the Black women who force us to rethink Blackness, womanhood, liberation, spirituality, all of the well-integrated aspects of self- Yeah
that you have brought forth into your work. Not just the books, everything you do. Um, thank you so much. Happy birthday, again. Thank you. We're so grateful that you- Aw ... were born. Um- Yes ... uh, by way of closing the circle, could you read another-
Christena: Sure ...
Amy: invocation from your book?
Christena: Yeah. This is from in... This is from chapter six, so it's Invocation Six, and this invocation is written to, uh, Black Madonna of Einsiedeln Switzerland, Our Lady of the Ominously Dark Forest.
Mothers and... Oh, excuse me, I'll start again. Mother of mystics and monks, weirdos and wanderers, we are burned out believers awakening and longing for renewal. We hoped that light and certainty would make us whole. Yes, we made offerings, served faithfully, abided by the Good Book. But the church's bright lights and clamor of creeds, which promised fulfillment and a clear path to heaven, have left us disillusioned and agonized by a spiritual migraine.
Woo our souls into your dark forest where we can be born again. Zealous blaze, mama volcano, in your ominous forest you reign over fire and lava. Even the most powerful, cunning and sinister forces cannot decimate what you have willed to live. Yes, you gather the flames that are meant to harm and transform them into holy molten fire that burns, burns, burns away all that stifles true life.
When the fires of this world are set to destroy us, woo our souls into your dark forest where we can be born again. Cosmic womb, even amid senseless pain, you liberate us from the need to know, the need to control, to see beyond our next step. In your forest womb, you quiet our senses and we become fetuses again, free to depend.
As we rest in you, your sacred umbilical cord feeds us a feast of peace that passes all understanding. Woo our souls into your dark forest where we can be born again
Amy: Asé. Mm.
Christena: Hell yeah. Mm.
Amy: Thank you, Christina. Thank you, Reed, for being here too. Happy Lammas, everyone.
Christena: Hey,
Amy: Lammas. And go and purchase The Black Madonna immediately, listeners. Buy the audiobook and the e-book and the paper book. Get all three. You will want them for every part of your life. And happy Lammas.
Happy Lammas. And blessed fucking be.
Reed: Blessed fucking be. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be
Intro: a witch.
Reed: Be a witch.
Amy: You must be a witch