Happy Litha! Happy Summer Solstice! Happy longest day of the year!! Today we gather with Eliza Swann and Tree Carr to explore a galaxy of 21st Century Alchemy, shining light on a technology of magic, a science of craft. Together we discuss the Witchcraft/Quantum Physics pipeline, telephone magic, consciousness, the creative process, dreams as source, art as prayer, the power of collective belief, imagination, and ideas about god(s). For the solstice, Tree and Eliza suggest noticing that Litha falls on Father's Day this year, and creating a Wake Up spell. Eliza Swann is artist, writer, and alchemist whose work explores mysticism and its relationship to contemporary arts practice. Eliza's latest book is The Alchemical Imagination: Creativity as Catalyst for Radical Transformation. Tree Carr is an author, educator, creative Witch who works in the field of Transpersonal Psychology with a focus on dreams, death, altered states of consciousness, and psychedelic-assisted therapy. Tree's latest book is Technomancy: Tech Magic and Spells for the 21st-century Witch. Tree wrote, “The more I explored, the clearer it became: ancient magic and modern tech weren't so different [...] Magic is all about energy, and I realized tech could amplify it, aligning perfectly with intention.” Eliza wrote, "The violence that capitalism enacts on time, nature, and our sense of connection is completely incompatible with alchemy and magic, which ask us to slow down, listen, and actually feel the soul of things." So let's take some time this Litha to slow down, listen to these Witches, and try to actually feel the soul of everything. https://www.missingwitches.com/21st-century-alchemy-litha-2026-with-tree-carr-and-eliza-swann
www.missingwitches.com/21st-century-alchemy-litha-2026-with-tree-carr-and-eliza-swann
Amy T.: Happy Litha. Happy summer solstice. Happy longest day of the year to the Missing Witches coven. Today, we gather with Eliza Swann and Tree Carr to explore a galaxy of 21st century alchemy, shining a light on a technology of magic, a science of craft. If you wanna support the Missing Witches project, join the coven.
Find everything you need to know at missingwitches.com.
Intro: You aren't being a proper woman, therefore you must be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. Be a witch. You must be a witch
Amy T.: Hello, Missing Witches coven. Happy Litha, happy summer solstice, happy longest day of the year. Today, I've brought together two authors, artists, educators, witches. They have so much in common. There's so much connective tissue in their work that I am grateful and beyond excited, and praise God, et cetera, to have been able to bro- bring them together today for this podcast.
Please welcome Eliza Swann. The new book is The Alchemical Imagination: Creativity as Catalyst for Radical Transformation. And the one and only High Priestess Tree Carr. The new book is Technomancy: Tech Magick and Spells for the 21st Century Witch. Eliza wrote, "The violence that capitalism enacts on time, nature, and our sense of connection is completely incompatible with alchemy and magic, which ask us to slow down, listen, and actually feel the soul of things."
So today, for this Litha episode, let's slow down. Let's listen to these witches and see if we can actually feel the soul of everything. I brought you two together because, as I said, there's so much connective tissue, but Tree, here's the line that cinched it for me. In Technomancy, you wrote, "The more I explored, the clearer it became.
Ancient magic and modern tech weren't so different." So that's what we're here to talk about today, a technology of magic, the arcane, the ancient, the contemporary, the future, and how all of us in this what even is time are interacting with all of these things at once. They are not opposites. We exist on this circular serpent, if you will, of time, and space, and love I've said enough.
Let's start with Eliza. Mm-hmm. Before we get to my questions and digging, digging, getting our nails dirty in- ... this realm of alchemy and magic, this is both of your first times on the podcast. So please, what do you want our listeners to know about you? What's important to you right now? Who are you? What are you doing?
What's going on?
Eliza: Um, big question right away. Um, my name's Eliza Swann, and I'm an artist, an educator, and a magician. And in 2014, I established Golden Dome School as a space for particularly artists who are interested in relating their creative practices to magical practice. Um, and so that started out as an artist in residence program and then blossomed into public performances and exhibitions and classes, and now books.
Um, and I also teach alchemy at the Pratt Institute in New York. So that's what I'm up to.
Amy T.: I discovered Golden Dome School Very close to the beginning of The Missing Witches project. Mm. And I was thrilled to discover your work. I think my introduction to Golden Dome was The Resurrection of Care.
Eliza: Yeah.
Amy T.: So before we get to Tree, please, like, give me a couple minutes on The Resurrection of Care.
Eliza: Yeah. I'm so glad you're asking, 'cause actually it's coming back next year. Um, I took a break from directing Golden Dome for a couple years just 'cause it was, um, sort of scaling up in a way that felt unmanageable. Um, and now I've stepped back into directing it, and The Resurrection of Care was an annual public pageant that I would do that Edgar Fabián Frías, um, leads.
They lead the kind of opening prayer and the kind of structure of the ceremony, and it was devised initially, actually before I even knew Edgar, as a response to something called the Cremation of Care, which was not, like, a part of conspiracy theory anything at the time. Um, I lived in San Francisco and went to art school there, and Bohemian Grove is a men's club where, you know, powerful businessmen and, uh, senators get together in the redwoods, and they would open their sort of summer camp with each other with a ceremony called the Cremation of Care.
And so we did The Resurrection of Care on the same day just to, like, bring it right back. Um, and then, yeah, eventually it evolved into this sort of annual parade where we would march around Los Angeles and bless bodies of water with the spirit of our caring, and it evolved into a space where folks would talk about, um, their grief also and their concerns for each other and this planet, um, and have a sort of a place to be together in that.
So it'll come back in 2027.
Amy T.: I, I love this as a, you know, um, this meeting point of performance art and ritual. And it was one of those things where I, I re- had read about Bohemian Grove. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's so interesting to me that the rich, the elite, they are using occult practices while simultaneously demeaning the non-rich- Yeah
and the non-powerful from using these tools, right? And so that's so interesting to me. That's almost like a proof that magic works when the quote-unquote higher-ups are using it and trying to get us not to use it.
Eliza: Um- Yeah, that one is a tale as old as time, right? I mean, empires are all built on magical practice, so.
Amy T.: Tree, tell us about your magical practice, and also who are you? Where are you? What are you doing? What's going on? What are you working on?
Tree: Yeah, who are you? Hey, everyone. Hey, uh, my name's Tree, and I'm an author. I work in the, the field of transpersonal psychology. I'm a graduate of the Olive Trust, uh, in their transpersonal psychology program, uh, through altered states of consciousness and psychedelic-assisted therapy.
And I'm a death doula, so I've been a practicing doula for about 14 years. Uh, so the zones of, of death. I kind of consider myself a threshold worker because I'm also, uh, a massive dream worker. I've penned a lot of books on dreaming and consciousness, and, uh, dreams and death aren't too dissimilar. They're those f- funny liminal thresholds that hold a, a bit of mystery.
Uh, and I'm a witch, so in that zone of witchiness and witchcraft, I suppose, uh, divination is a, a pretty strong aspect of my work. Um, so dreams, death, divination. I like to often say I'm like triple D. Yeah. I've never been a triple D. I was a late bloomer, but like- ... it was ... Right? So it's all that threshold work.
Um, but I'm also a, a creative. I've been creating dream art since I was a, a little kid. My formative years were spent on a commune in the Southern United States, in the '70s, back, you know, in the olden days. And, uh, so a lot of my work i- comes from my relationship to dreams. So never went to art school or anything like that.
I've always just been doing dream art since a kid, and I'm still doing that process. And, uh, growing up on a commune, played lots of different instruments, so I'm also a musician. And in fact, I see Primal Scream right behind you. And I went on tour with those guys back in, uh, 2008 with one of the bands I was in.
In fact, toured for about a month with them. Uh, yeah, so that's kind of it, those, those sort of intersection of creativity, magic, but really space holding for all of the, the liminalities of life. That's kind of ... That's sort of the zone.
Amy T.: Thank you for noticing. I did put that on display because I read that you had gone on tour with Primal Scream.
Screamadelica is-
Tree: Total crush. Yeah, I was like, woo, synchronicities. Curation.
Amy T.: Screamadelica is one of my... I, I mean, I own thousands of records. I consider myself a sonic witch above all things. Yes. Um, so s- s- to say that Screamadelica is, like, in my top 500 albums is, is a really big compliment. It is... I mean- Good stuff
it, it hasn't gone out of rotation since I got it in, like, '90, '91, somewhere around there. It's always been on heavy rotation. So just for me personally, sorry coven, um, can you give me- ... like, one highlight of working or touring with Primal Scream, just for me?
Tree: When, what happens on the road stays on the road.
Oh. No, but I I'm just trying to think of... Oh, God, there was so much on that tour. But I don't know, like, what... I'll try to, uh... I don't know. I, I probably shouldn't, uh, reveal. It's kinda like the law of secret, a bit of like the laws of magic. Um, but I'm... I, I will say though, one really, one beautiful highlight, and, and this felt like a very, very magical moment, was meeting Kevin Shields from My Bloody Valentine-
Eliza: Mm
Tree: uh, at the soundcheck. And, uh, in a soundcheck, you know, we had to do a little, you know, you get up there and do the soundcheck, so they're checking the mics. And so, you know, you goof around when you're doing soundcheck sometimes, you know. Well, I do anyway, maybe 'cause I'm just such a clown. But, um, I just, I was singing, uh, just really slowly, uh, uh, Satellite of Love.
Um, and so- Really? ... uh, "Ba, ba, satellite of love," just really, really, really slow and drawn out, just to kinda get all the tones in for the soundcheck. And then I came back down and it was just, like, empty apart from this one man standing there, and he came up to me. I was like, "Oh, whoa, it's Kevin Shields." And he's like, "Wow, that was so beautiful."
He said, "Oh, that was so beautiful. Thanks for singing that." I was like, oh. I felt like that was such a magical moment. I was just like, "Thank you." Like, s- and he's such a sweet, sweet person. And so, you know, sometimes it's like never re- you- meet your idols or never meet your idols 'cause they will disappoint you, and, and it's true.
Sometimes they do, but not at all with Kevin Shields. Proper beautiful person.
Amy T.: It's so amazing. I mean, we'll have to continue our friendship because you mentioned three of my top 500 there. Screaming Delica, Transformer, the Lou Reed album- Yeah ... and of course Loveless by Bl- My Bloody Valentine is, might even crack the top 100.
Tree: Yes. Oh, definitely.
Amy T.: Let's, like, expand this a little bit to include Eliza. I wanna know about your creative process because a lot of the witches in my coven, it's like there's something clawing inside of them to get out. But whatever it is, trauma, shyness- Mm-hmm ... um, d- imposter syndrome, whatever it is that's preventing that from coming out is very fucking strong.
Yeah. So I'll, I'll turn to Eliza first and ask- Mm-hmm ... like how do you, how can you be so prolific? And what advice can you give to my coven mates who are reaching for that kind of prolific state?
Eliza: Oh, well, I was so moved by Tree's story. Um, so I'll tell one that's adjacent about meeting a, a hero and having this magical transformation.
But, um, when I was in my teens and 20s, I was goth, and I would go out only at night, and I was very shy, and by light of day I barely said a word, and, um, was very reticent to speak. Really, really, really easily, uh, embarrassed and would turn red, and my voice was just kind of off. And I loved Linda Mary Montana, who's a performance artist here in the United States.
And, um, at the New Museum in New York City she would paint rooms different rainbow colors and offer tarot readings. Throughout the '80s and '90s when this stuff was not very cool, it was kind of out of vogue, she just kept at it, and she had a summer performance art saint camp. And at one point I was running an art gallery for mystical artists in New York City, and a friend was like, "Hey, you should go see Linda Montana 'cause you're giving tarot readings in this art gallery.
She used to do that at the New Museum. She's right upstate." So I called her on the phone, I got her phone number, and she said, "Okay, uh, this is my fee. What you're gonna do is write a eight-page autobiography, or seven-page for the seven chakras. You're gonna take the bus up here upstate, and you're gonna read me your seven-page autobiography, and then I'm gonna have you act out the most gruesome parts of it as, like, a healing."
So this, like, famous performance artist, I took a bus up to see her, and I was like, "Linda, I don't know how to use my voice. You know, I'm totally mute basically. Um, unless I really know people I have, like, real stranger danger." And so I did... I read her my autobiography. I did three performances just for her, and so I would do, like, a freeze frame of, like, whatever dramatic thing in my life, and then she would ask me to change the scene.
Um, and something happened, because after that I started showing artwork. I started teaching publicly. I'm totally okay, uh, you know, in an auditorium full of people to give a talk. Um, it just opened it up. And so she really showed me actually that art is transformative in this very potent and kind of immediate way.
And also her summer saint camp was really a blueprint for Golden Dome. She would have performance artists come. She was a nun in a convent in her teenage years or early 20s So she would have performance artists come and kind of live like nuns together for a week, um, and work on these performances together.
And Golden Dome at first was an artist residency where we would get together for a week, and each week was based on a tarot card. And so anyway, I think Linda Montano's work really helped me kind of open up the throat there and not only sort of see what was happening that was impeding my voice, but also, like, move through it with a witness, right?
Um, which maybe Tree could speak to i- in that kind of psychoanalytic way. It's, it's hugely powerful
Amy T.: Yeah, Tree, please do. How, how do you react to, um, l- sorry, Linda Marie Montano?
Eliza: Linda Marie Montano,
Tree: yeah. Yeah.
Amy T.: What was your... What came up for you while Eliza was telling this story, Tree?
Tree: Yeah, like I'm a bit of a rational mystic, so I always like to- Yeah
understand how things work- Yeah ... like on a fundamental scientific level. Um, and so I love questions like this because it makes me sit with like what is the true nature of reality? How do things actually really work? Um, and I'm, I'm kind of the... I, I kinda support a, uh, a, a nonlinear type of reality in terms of time and more of a quantum framework in terms of quantum science.
So I see, uh, these sort of things as, um, relational. Everything is relational to each other within this quantum universe. So I see things like what Eliza, like what you experienced in this situation of a sort of like an alchemizing or an activation of the voice through, you know, she basically initiated you, didn't she, through her through this process of this mission where you're like, "Oh, shit, I'm gonna do that."
But- Yeah ... something, you know, got initiated. It's almost like a relational, um, dynamic between- Yeah ... her, uh, the content and, and, and the mission of what she created and crafted for you to sort of do and perform as something, um, deeply activating. And so I don't see magic as too dissimilar from how a quantum universe relates, you know?
We, we sit there as observer, observer effect with our will and our choice and our intentions, and, you know, we, we kind of make things happen through taking action or our intentions behind things. And so, you know, it can happen with other people in these amazing feedback loops, and that's why as witches or even any kind of ceremonial mag- magician or mystic gets initiated on the path, 'cause it's all- Mm-hmm
there's the theory of it all, but then there is the doing of it too. And I think that we have to be in the doing. And like you said, Eliza, you're like, "Oh my God, like, I kinda fucking ... want to do that." But, but you were like, "But, but hang on a minute. Uh, th- this, this... There's possibilities in that." Like- Yeah
you know, and you just going for it, you know, there's like... But yeah, there's a potential perhaps, you know, something can come through this. So that is a beautiful, beautiful experience. Thanks for sharing that. Mm-hmm.
Amy T.: Tree, tell, tell us about your creative process. Again, uh, listeners, Tree is sitting in her studio that is just, like, half apothecary, half pile of musical instruments.
It's glorious I
Tree: think, uh, a, a, a creative process of... Wow, where does it start? It, it's a little bit like, uh, what David Lynch says, that, you know, you get this sort of, like, a seed of i- of an idea, and that idea just sort of sticks in a way, and you just feel excited about that idea, and you just wanna, like, explore that idea more and more and more.
It's like what he says about, like, you know, catching the big fish, uh, the, in the, in the in the, in the sea of consciousness. You know? The, the ideas are the fish. And I just see it as almost like this, um... It all starts with the idea, so very much like what Lynch says. And even just, you know, artists like, uh, Hilma af Klint, you know, the, the, there, there's this, this connection to something that feels like a spark that's almost, like, channeled through you.
And I think Ri- Rick Rubin also, like, uh, you know, kinda create, creates this process through his work as a, a, as a music producer, and he sort of articulates that really, really well as, as well in some of his writings. It just kinda comes out of nowhere, and sometimes it can come from dreams. And so because I've been making dream art since I was a little kid, um, I would have to give all my credit really to the dreams.
And what are the dreams anyway, right? I see them as almost like they're experiences of consciousness in the altered state of sleep. So I see them through more of an animistic framework than a kind of a reductionist materialist framework. I see that we, the dreams are like, you know, they're, we- we're interconnected to a big sort of sea of the unconscious, like Jung would call it, the collective unconscious, and that we can tap into these archetypal sort of energies or themes and, uh, even experience some really bizarre and surreal kind of epiphanies in the dreams.
So I'd say the dreams are my number one kind of source of in- inspiration. So usually what I do is if I have some... You know, I've been dream journaling since I was young. I've got, like, over 40 years' worth of dusty dream journals. Every year I've gotta fill a whole one out. Um, and even do bibl- bibliomancy with my, my dream journals, like, from when I was, like, a teenager.
I'll give, like... A, a, a dream from when I was 15 years old might give me a message for today kinda thing. Um, but usually I'll go through them. If something was quite visual, I'll start, like, paint, painting it, so a little bit of, uh, color to canvas, and it sort of just- just evolves out of that. And so I've got, yeah, that, that's kind of the process.
So the two tool- the tools are, the tech is the dreams, altered states of consciousness and the alt- in, in sleep. Then mapping it out in the journal, so that's the blueprint. And then kinda transforming it into, uh, these paintings. And that's kind of how it works
Amy T.: I was about 11 years old when I almost like near simultaneously discovered David Lynch and John Waters.
And so this became basically like a foundation for my entire outlook of life, uh, uh, into my adulthood, into my life now. I saw these people who were experimenting with the surreal, that this notion of art as not something to be understood, but something to be experienced, and that has been a huge thing for me.
You know, I feel like a lot of gallery spaces... I'll, I'll tell you my, my Scottish cousin, we went to the, um, Glasgow Modern when I was visiting, and cousin-in-law, um, and he said to me, "You know, Amy, I don't get any of this." And I said, "You don't have to." The idea that art requires an education in order to have, like, a visceral reaction is...
Again, it's this capitalistic, this hegemonic, you need to read 12 books before you're allowed to enjoy a piece of art, is tragic to me, that there are people out there who think they can't, quote-unquote, listeners, I'm using big bunny ear scare quotes here, they can't appreciate art unless they have a doctoral thesis in art history.
And I love that the both of you are expanding this notion, taking your work public, public ritual, public acts. Um, Triet, you do a camp. Obviously, Eliza, you're doing residencies and all of these things. How can people make art a part of their every day? Let me, let me actually read a quote. This is from Eliza again.
"From its very beginning, art has been an instrument of ritual, a way for us to sing our blood back to the divine. It wasn't until Greek philosophers began distinguishing between the sacred and secular art that the idea of art as something other than an active form of prayer emerged." Mm. This notion of creativity, of art-making as a form of active prayer, I think is really missing from the professionalization of art, of music.
I've had so many people tell me, "I can't sing," and I'm like, "If you can speak, you can sing. You don't have to be good. You don't have to be a good writer to write. You don't have to be a good singer to sing. You don't have to be a good dancer to dance." Like, we, if we can conceive of our art-making as a prayer, I feel like this just expands the entire universe.
I don't know who wants to talk about it first, but please talk to me about art as communication with the divine, art as prayer.
Eliza: Well, I have so many thoughts on it, obviously, right? There's a whole book on it, and more that didn't make it in there. But, um, I love that you brought up John Waters earlier because sometimes when I hear things like, "Oh, art is active prayer," it sounds like art should be serious in some way.
And I think actually, um, allowing ourselves to experience divine inspiration as this kind of effusive, expansive joy that really actually breaks through tyrannical structures, it, it, that invites in the clown, and humor, and, um, audacity into our work, and it invites in, I think, the audacity to just do it because we...
If we feel like our art is an active prayer to our current existence, whatever that might be, it, it asks us to really take our place here on Earth, to really, like, sit in our seat and, and, um, sing back into this music of being alive. And so I think there's a lot of permission in thinking of art as active prayer.
And also, I watched Sister Wendy. As a child, I was obsessed with Sister Wendy. She was, um, a hermit and a nun who then was on, I think, BBC giving tours of art museums, and I ended up giving psychic tours of art museums, like, because of Sister Wendy. Um, but I watched interviews with her to self-soothe, and she has one where somebody asks her, like, "Oh, you're a hermit.
You're a virgin, you know. What do you know of this world? How do you deal with looking at these artists' work who maybe these artists are, like, bad guys or, um, whatever?" And she was like, "Oh, well, you know, I kind of deal with art like the way that it was before 1400, where it's just, like, it's not about the artist.
In fact, we might not even know their name. It's just, um, the divine showing up in drag, and I, I really can't get involved with the gossip around the artist too much because then I stop looking at the work. It's like a different conversation." Um, anyway, those are my thoughts for right now.
Amy T.: Tree, I know that your art comes from your dreams, and then so where are you sending it?
Is it a loop?
Tree: Yeah, that's really interesting. I think it really depends on the artist because some artists really do channel the divine. I mean, think of Alex Gray. I think of like, you know, the, the, you know, Hilma af Klint. Like, I, all these, like really there is a processes, like a considered process that, uh, that they are channeling something a little bit beyond channeling the divine.
But then you have like, uh, then you have artists who are, you know, selling, uh, products for Nike or for, you know, Tesco. So, like, so that's not really channeling the divine I gu- Maybe it is, but like, uh, I, I don't know. I, maybe I'm not to be the judge of that. So it really depends on the artist, I think. Um, and it also maybe depends on, yeah, the intention because every, every magical practice will always come...
Well, everything, not even just magical pract- Well, I see this whole thing as a magical act, like being alive really. Everything comes from intention. So- Everything comes through intention, so whether you want to, like, channel something in to create a beautiful artwork that it, that holds almost a resonance to heal people or intercede on behalf of humanity, that's one thing.
But if you have the intention to sell tons of really extractive products from the environment towards people back to themselves and make a lot of money, then that's a different intention. So I guess it really comes back to intentions. But I see things like, especially I'm, I'm a v- very, um, big fan of film, and I've worked in the film industry in my, like, in my 30s, and I really see films as a really interesting sort of channeling, and I see that films are like the cultural dreams, and they project, you know, our unconscious shadow a lot of the time back at us.
Um, so that's why, you know, things like horror films don't freak me out. Like, I actually like to watch a good A24 film, you know what I mean? And, and see, like, what kind of cultural shadow are we looking at here? Oh, it's the archetype of the predatory male. Okay, let's look at that. You know, so I like, I like, I love film for that se- in that sense.
Although I, I'm trying to think if I've seen bits of film that feel like it's channeling the divine. Um, I'd say maybe Jodorowsky's films, like, they are highly magical films. Alejandro Jodorowsky, like, in, insane. Like, back in the 2000s, I ran, um, a cult video shop and film club with my partner for about, like, 11 years in London, and we would do, like, these screenings, underground screenings with really hard to find and hard to seek films.
Every time we showed Jodorowsky's films, either El Topo or Holy Mountain, I am not kidding, there, something went up at, on the screening. Like, some kind of spell was cast. We had one screening with El Topo, and a guy just started randomly howling like a wolf during the screening, and we had to, like, kind of, "Are you all right, guy?"
Like, t- t- exit him out, and he just couldn't stop howling. Uh, a few years later, we showed Holy Mountain, and a guy literally fell out of his chair laughing, and we thought that's quite ... Well, he was laughing, and then he fell out of his chair laughing, and then he was rolling around all over the floor laughing in hysterics, like possessed.
So I, I deeply think J- Jodorowsky's films were channeled from some, from the trickster spirit or some kind of trickster kind of d- deity, uh, and dispersed out into the audience of people watching it. 'Cause I've seen it firsthand, like literally. So I think it all comes down to intention, and like all art, uh, whatever the intention is behind it could have its sort of spell cast, um, or is, is a prayer.
I'm ... Certainly there are intercessors on this planet, right? By way of, you know, Buddhist monks doing their meta meditations on behalf of humanity, nuns locked away in cloisters, like, praying constantly f- on behalf of humanity, or artists that are making prayer art or intercessor art on behalf of something.
So intentions, but yeah, certainly where does it come from? It's like, it's kind of amazing what we bring in.
Amy T.: I did a screening of Holy Mountain in a friend of mine's backyard. I'd gotten a small projector because there were movies that I wanted to see on the big screen that I knew probably I wasn't gonna get a chance.
So she had one of those backyards with a big white brick wall. It all made sense. We screened Holy Mountain, and at the end, maybe a third of us, "Genius. Bravo. Genius." Just freaking out. And then the other two thirds were like, "What the fuck did I just watch? What the
fuck was that?" And again, it's like, it's, it's always glorious for me to see this happen because it reminds me, like, your stuff doesn't have to be for everyone for it to be fucking genius. You know? Exactly. There are people who aren't gonna get it, and that's fine. Just do it anyway. Uh, and that's okay.
Tree: And some people will c- come under the spell and start howling or dancing around.
Best thing I ever saw was Holy Mountain screened. Jodorowsky showed up, sat right in front of me, so I watched the back of Jodorowsky's head watching Holy Mountain. So that final scene where he's like, "Pull back, pull back," in that final scene, and then they pull back and you're like, "Oh, it's like a reality within a reality."
And I'm like, and I'm in another reality looking at the back of Jodorowsky's white head in, in, in this other reality. And he was amazing. It was great to meet him, and he pulled cards for everyone, and it was, uh, one of those, like, rubbing the eyes moment, going like, "We live in a dream." Yeah. Like we definitely live in a dream or a hallucination.
Amy T.: And, and certainly, or maybe a simulation. Um-
Tree: Yeah.
Amy T.: While we have the technology, let's, let's talk about a simulation. Um, I, I mean, this is kind of related to that, but w- we have a lot of conversations in our coven. Again, we're rationalists. We love science. We love facts and methodology. Um, I have to shout out White Feather Hunter who is a PhD, um, and...
A, a science PhD And White Feather Hunter says, "Hypotheses are prophecies. Ritual is methodology." And it's the same kind of thing that w- us three are talking about here, right? Where we just kind of slightly change the vocabulary, but the core of it is the same. But what I wanna know, we talk so much in the Missing Witches Coven about this notion of deity.
Because a lot of the, of the members of the Missing Witches Coven are ex-evangelical people who are deconstructing an upbringing in the church, and so the notion of deity for them is very weighted, a very loaded idea. Uh, so I wanna know, I guess I'll start with Eliza. Like, what do you believe?
Eliza: Personally?
Amy T.: Personally. Only your perspective. I don't care what the other eight billion are thinking. I wanna know only what you think. Like, do you believe in gods? Do you bel- What ... Like, what do you believe? Are gods symbolic? Are they archetypes, or are they creatures, for lack of a better word?
Eliza: Hmm. Well, I'm kind of of, like, an apophatic bent, like, that you, you can't really speak about the divine too well.
Like, language actually falls apart in front of it, and it's part of the joy of art making is that you're wa- sort of watching what you're getting at fall apart as you're building it. But, but I use constructs to kind of help me out with talking about these things. And as a young person, I was initiated into Hermetic orders, so sometimes I use their language just for ease, right?
But in that system, the beginning of beginnings is the one mind, so the entire thing that we exist in is a field of consciousness, just in various forms of drag. So if I conceive of things that way, like, for sure there are deities just like there are human beings. They're, they're different forms of consciousness in drag showing us, like, a particular facet of existence or experience.
Um, so that's my short answer.
Amy T.: So kinda. That's where I'm at K- I'm on like-
Eliza: Yeah ...
Amy T.: do I believe in, in deities? Kinda. Mm. How about you, Tree? Do you believe in... Like, what do you bel- how do you believe?
Tree: So if I was to alchemize and whittle it all down into one fundamental belief, um, I believe in consciousness and a sea of consciousness, but through the perspective of quantum physics, so everything is like a subatomic kind of field of possibilities because that, that is a big, a big component of a quantum perspective is there's many possibilities that we can engage in.
I see deities as, uh, almost like egregores that we create through our thoughts, through our belief, and through the energy w- we put towards it. So we create the deities that we believe in. Um, and we collectively give them energy, give this, th- this kind of idea energy so they become this sort of egregore of sorts.
Um, and I believe that probably J- almost everything can kind of exist. I know that sounds kind of crazy. It's a bit of a Alan Moore kind of concept of, of reality that our imaginations and our thoughts can shape and create things basically. But they might just ... Where do they exist? They exist in some sort of collective field of information.
Um, so for example, like these beliefs in, in elves or gnomes or fae or little people, like that kind of belief is everywhere. It's not just in the Celtic Isles, but it's also in Africa, it's also seen in lots of different places, for example. Or the Yeti or the Sasquatch or the Bigfoot, you know, th- these ... or the troll, you know, all kind of the similar sort of thing.
And so it's like, yeah, you know, they, they probably somehow do kind of exist in some kind of way because they ex- exist in our, our kind of cultural sort of, uh, thought system, myth, and, and sphere. So we've actually, like, made it happen or created it in some kind of way, whether it's just an energy or whether it's just imagination.
So that's h- what, that's what I, how I feel about deity. Um, going to all of the de- maybe that's very sacrilegious to say, but you know, every, every kind of deity under the sun. Um, I, I kind of experienced this once, like, the, the pow- the power of collective belief, and it was when I was in, uh, Palestine in 20, uh, twen- uh, 2016.
I was in Palestine, and I was helping with a charity and whatnot. And on one of the days off, I was, like, um, there just kind of roaming around, and I ended up in this church. And so it was ... You know, I just kind of followed the crowd, and there was this crowd going downstairs into this, like, basement. And so I thought, "Oh, what's down there?
I'll just follow the crowd." But there was, like, security guards too, so I thought, "Oh, what's there?" So I, I kind of went down, and as I went down into this basement, there's this, like, small little room When I went into that room, I f- the, the wave of energy was just so intense, so intense. It literally, like, made me a and I was like, "Whoa, I need to...
I'm kind of dizzy. Like, I need to lean against the wall." And I just felt, like, this huge kind of magnetic, like, heightened sort of energy. And I said to the security guard, I was like, "W- what is this room?" Like, "What is this?" And he said, he pointed and he said, "Oh, that's, that's the spot where Jesus Christ was born."
So it was, like, the, the Church of the Nativity. I didn't realize, I even, like, s- stumbled upon this huge Christian kind of, like, pilg- pilgrimage place. But I, from that experience, I, I took this sort of notion that all these pilgrims over the decades of going there have collect- have, have created, like, this collective energy of worship or reverence there through just their bowing down and kissing the, that star on the floor, right, for Christ.
So I just felt like, wow, you know? Like, the power of us as a, as a, as a collective of where we put our intentions and our energies and our prayers or our mantras or our whatever it is that we're putting out there, it, it's palpable. It's palpable and tangible. So, you know, deities maybe are just one step further, where that starts to kind of coagulate and creates, like, a kind of egregore, and we, we make it so.
So there it is. That's just, I don't know, maybe I'm full of shit. But I, I like to think of these things, but, you know, I'm still... I, I would never say I know how it works. I'm just like, "Oh, that's a good question. Maybe that's how it works. I don't know." Maybe there's- I think- ... something ...
Amy T.: we, all, all us witches are kind of equal parts brilliant and full of shit, because we are inventing- Yeah.
Oh, my God ... inventing our realities at all times. But you, you touched... Oh, there's my chair going. You touched on something that I really wanna get into, which is this sort of witchcraft, quantum physics, quantum mechanics pipeline that I think, like, certain schools or certain groups of witches, I don't know if it's kind of a chicken egg thing.
Did you get into quantum physics before you got into witchcraft, or did you get into witchcraft before you got into quantum physics? And is there even a difference?
Tree: You know, good point. But I got, I got into quantum physics because of my lucid dreams, and, uh, I s- I started having this, like, phase in my life where all of a sudden my lucid dreams were showing me, like, mathematical formulas and, like, theories.
And so I'd wake up and I would recreate them and draw them, and I'd be like, "What is... Like, what?" And then like, I gotta work this out. I, I need to understand why I was shown that in a lucid dream. And these lucid dreams started to show themselves in a different way than from when I was, like, a kid. They were, th- like, the best way to describe it was like a hologram, so I'm interfacing with, like, a holographic sort of reality in front of me, so a, a few multiple layers of imagery within a dream world, if that makes sense.
And the holographic, uh, interface, uh, there's like a telepatha- a telepathic kind of communication going on with it. So that's kinda the territory. So b- that's what got me into quantum mechanics, is I just wanted to understand what I was being shown. Like, does this track? And I have a few physicist friends as well, and I'd throw th- like, I was shown this theory in a dream.
What do you think of this? And they're like, "Oh my God, that tracks with, like, gravity time loop theory." And I'm like, "What is that? Okay, like, I gotta research that." And so that's why I started using a lot of quantum language, because the dreams gave it to me first. And so I feel like I'm trying to merge science and magic in my own day-to-day practice.
Um, and I'm trying to understand how, you know, they're married and not separate, and also just wanna fucking figure out all this weird shit that my dreams are showing me, you know? Like, so it's just- Yeah ... a curious mind that I'm like, you know, investigated all of this stuff.
Amy T.: Um, Eliza, I think that your, like, notion of deity kind of brought up this, like, unified field theory, the source of all consciousness.
But of course, alchemy as a concept, as an entity, is this marriage of magic and science. So can you- Yeah ... I know you're, you're an alchemy professor, so I imagine- ... you can go off pretty good.
Eliza: Um, in... One of the reasons I was drawn to alchemy, even though it's so complicated and, uh, kind of off-puttingly complex and gatekept and, um, the faces of it these days are not faces that necessarily appeal to me, you know, like old men in powdered wigs.
Um, but I fell in love with it and stayed with it since my teens because it just disrupts any notion that you will ever have about things being, um separate. So as above, so below, as within, so without. Magic and science are the same, but they're, they're different facets. You can distinguish things. You can, um, say that this thing functions in this way, and this thing functions in this way, but actually they don't exist without each other.
And, um, alchemy is often defined in slogans, right? Rather than, like, full explanations because it's hard to describe what alchemy does. It's so interdisciplinary. It's visual art, it's chemistry, it's, um, mysticism, it's poetry, it's philosophy. They called themselves philosophers of fire. Um, so one of my teacher's slogans was, "Alchemy is looking with two eyes that can see."
And it comes out of Egyptian cosmology where you have a solar eye that can see linear time, difference in form, cause and effect, um, the laws of physics that pertain to the material world, and you can empirically deal with those things. And then you have a lunar eye that is entirely transpersonal, that sees all the interconnections, it sees energetics, it sees fields of consciousness.
And actually by putting the lunar and solar eye together, you get this 3D picture of reality. You can't really have one without the other. And so you could say that the lunar eye sort of holds a lot of the mysteries of magic, and the solar eye holds a lot of the sort of proofs and empiricism of science.
But actually you require both, and they don't exist without each other. Um, Chinese alchemists would use Daoist phrasing to describe that idea. The Tao Te Ching is full of passages about how high and low depend on each other. Um, the figure in European alchemy for enlightenment is the Rebis, which is a masculine-feminine figure with wings who's also standing on a demon.
Like, once you've obtained awakening in alchemy, you're heavenly, you're demonic, you're masculine, you're feminine, you're above, you're below. You, you can sort of inhabit all kinds of spaces with your being. So, um, actually alchemy helped me to not see any difference between magic and science except that it's m- maybe one's is situated in, in one way of seeing and one is situated in the other, but not cleanly at all
Amy T.: Listeners, I'm, I've just been bouncing for the past hour.
Um, here's one more piece of connective tissue between your two books. Again, the books are Technomancy by Tree Carr and The Alchemical Imagination by Eliza Swann. Both of you have sections about telephones. Um, I can remind you if you like, um, on page 139, Eliza. On page 218, Tree. Um, telepathic telephone, spirit telephone.
Tell me about this piece of technology that we pretty much all have and how we can use it for magic. There are two different versions, so please. Um, Tree, tell me about how to use a telephone for magic
Tree: Yeah. I love that you say telephone. That's great. It's really good. Yeah, uh, I think I first started look- like, 'cause, like look at our iPhones here.
I grew up, I was born in 1972, right? So like, and I grew up in a, a non-TV household my whole life 'cause of the way I was brought up on the commune and no outside influences and all that kind of stuff. So I was, like, in my late 20s when the internet was fully formed. So I, so, you know, to me, I see these devices and I'm like, wow, blows my mind because I, I, I didn't grow up with them, obviously, 'cause of the generation I'm in.
But so when they first started to come about, I was like, "This is pure fucking magic. It's actually u- undistinguishable from magic," you know, to be able to send a text message. I remember the first time I was in a chat room in my late 20s. I was like, "This is nuts. I'm talking to someone across the country."
So anyway, when this, the, the iPhones first came about, I was laughing and saying to my partner, "Does this not look like a scrying mirror?" I was like, "This is like a black obsidian slab." Like, I've got one that, that I've had for like 20 years for scrying and just, like, for trancing out and getting divination.
And here you've got, like, this modern-day scrying tool, but it does it all for you, right? So when I see those, the kids on the buses and they're just doom scrolling and they're hypnosis, they're in a hypnotic trance, I started thinking, like, this is wild. Like, they're doing it with no intentions. They are completely porous to it.
And I was like, this is a powerful fucking tool. And I was also like, this is not only a scrying mirror, it's a wand, 'cause we're, like, casting stuff all the time. Like every, like, like a podcast, like what you're doing, that is a spell being sent out, spell of information and, and n- learning and education. Um, vodcast, you know?
Castin-, it's the old Norse word for, to, to throw. We're throwing this information out by way of the elements of air. You know, it's literally going out. So I started to see, like, this is a powerful tool, and if we don't know how to use this as witches, it, it will, it could... It makes people go crazy. I've seen people going crazy from the phones.
The reason why people are going mad and having such s- psychological meltdowns and depression and all types of things is because they're using it without intention. They're using it without being fully present in the zone of working with it. So- It's just a tool. People see it, they go, "It's evil. It's the bane of existence.
It's actually Lucifer incarnate." Like, people have been saying mad shit about it. It's just a tool, folks. It's just a tool. Just like a hammer is a tool. I could build a house with it or I could crack someone over the head with it. It's the intention behind the tool. So don't throw these things away because we need witches and we need people who are working for the highest of good to harm none to get, you know, make those meme magic.
You know, make your videos that send good information. Overthrow the powers that be. We need the technomancers and the hackers and the witches and magicians more than ever in the tech realm. We have created another dimension of ones and zeros. It's happened. The genie is out of the bottle, it's not going back in.
So we need to help steward this thing and not throw the phones into the ocean and go live in a cave. Like, it's good to be able to... You know, I'm an animist and nature is a big part of my practice, but I limit my use of this thing. Every time I sit down on it, I'm like, "What good can I do today with this thing?"
And I'll put up a post or I'll send really helpful messages to people or, you know. That's it. And my, my screen time is really low. I don't just sit there and mindlessly, without intention, scroll. So there's, you know... I don't know what I just said. But anyway, sorry, I just went on a rant. But anyway, the, the phone-
Amy T.: No, we love it
Tree: the telephone, the telephone.
Amy T.: For the record, I love a rant. I live for a rant, so. Um, Eliza, the telepathic telephone. Tell me about this
Eliza: exercise Oh. Yeah. But also, I just love what Tree said so much, and I teach alchemy at an art school to 19-year-olds, and it's really difficult. I have to constantly be like, "Phones away, phones away, phones away, phones away."
Um, and what's really interesting about that generation having, having been raised on the phone is that when I bring in material from alchemical history, like visions of Zosimos, which is this alchemist describing using the dream state to go into the minds of different metals and to talk to the metals in the dream state, these kids can go right there.
They're like, "Oh, I know what this is. I know what it is to put your consciousness in something that's, doesn't have a physical body." Like, been there, done that. And that's the part that to me I was like, "Oh, this is gonna be a little weird for them." Um, but getting them to stay in the room is a little bit challenging, and to not fly off.
And I love that idea of, like, sitting with the phone and being like, "Oh, what good can I do with this instrument right now, and for how long can I keep that up realistically?" Um, so cool. I'm gonna do that myself and offer that to them. But the telepathic telephone, I think, if I remember the exercise correctly, um, it's just getting a vintage phone at, like, a thrift store or a flea market and using it as a way to, um, call up a deity or an ancestor.
It's like using that prop ritually so that you can, like, specifically dial up somebody who's in another time or dimension, um, and have a chat with them. It's a little like Jung's active imagination, but just with a prop. Um, that's what that is
Amy T.: I love it. Um, I'm excited to call David Lynch after this- ... have a little chat with David Lynch.
Um, I... Oh, and here we are almost out of time. I do hope you will do a part two with me. This has been so- I would love ... fruitful and amazing, and I feel like we've just begun to scratch the surface. Uh, I mean, it's, it's quantum physics, right? Like, we're not, we're not gonna figure it out in an hour. But I, I'm so grateful that you both have come to do some podcasting and spell casting with me today.
Eliza, how can our listeners support you in your work? Again, firstly, buy the book. The book is The Alchemical Imagination: Creativity as Catalyst for Radical Transformation. It is fantastic, listeners. I recommend highly. By Eliza Swann. How else can our listeners support you in your work and your endeavors?
Eliza: Yeah. Um, if you go to golden-dome.org, you know what would be amazing, is if you jumped on the mailing list so I don't have to be on Instagram all the time. There you go. Um, I'm touring the book up and down the California coast for the next month. Um, and then in October I'm doing a five-day live alchemy course with plants at the Omega Institute in upstate New York.
So I would love to see you some place, on that mailing list or at one of these events. But yeah.
Amy T.: Yeah. I'm, I'm based out of... I live in the woods now, but just north of Montreal, so I get, I get upstate every now and
Eliza: again. Amazing. Amazing.
Amy T.: I also get to the UK every now and again. So Tree, how can our listeners support you, other than, of course, listeners, buy the book?
The book is Technomancy: Tech Magick and Spells for the 21st Century, which you'll find stuff in this book like algorithm as law of attraction. So many poo, so many light bulb moments that happened while I was reading your book, Tree. How, other than buying the book, listeners buy the book, um, can our listeners support you and your work and your endeavors?
Tree: Unleash, unleash your voice. Um, well- ... I think a good way is, uh, yeah, just follow me on Instagram, 'cause then everything's all kinda linked in from there. Um, and that's probably where I'm more, more, the most active, uh, in terms of- Shouting out about a lot of nerdy stuff.
Amy T.: Yeah. Okay, so my final question as a wrap up, Eliza, do you have plans for the summer solstice? And if so, if not, what would you suggest that the Missing Witches Coven, how do you suggest that the Missing Witches Coven celebrate Litha, the summer solstice this year?
Eliza: Ooh, that's such a good question. Um, I'm working this summer solstice.
Witches are busy on that day. I'm doing a lecture on the Philosopher's Stone at the Philosophical Research Society, um, in the zenith of the sun's light. But if I wasn't working What's a good way to work with it? I'm gonna pass it to Tree, and then maybe it'll come to me.
Amy T.: Um, Tree, while you're thinking, I will say before we officially started rolling, Alyssa and I were talking about how the summer solstice falls on Father's Day this year-
which could be an interesting time to, um, work with father-son or to examine masculinity, maybe do a spell against toxic masculinity. Um, but I'll, I'll leave you to think about it. Tree, what are you doing or what do you think we should be doing?
Tree: Uh, on the summer solstice, I'm gonna be in Cornwall. There's, um, an event called The Garden of Tomorrow.
Uh, and I'm gonna be doing a talk with Jessica Hunley from Library Esoterica on sacred sites and the geomancy and the geomantic kind of power of- Ah, love
Amy T.: her ...
Tree: yeah, of the earth matrix. And we're gonna be doing like, you know, a geomantic ritual activating, uh, something on this amazing castle, 'cause we're, we're
the, the location is, uh, Tremanton Castle, which is a, a pretty incredible, uh, site. And, uh, yeah, and doing all the, the rites and the rituals on that, on the zenith on that, on that day for the solstice with a, a group called Boss Morris, which are a really great, like, Morris dancer group. Like, they're so much fun.
And so we're all gonna be making merry, uh, in Cornwall over that weekend. But I love this, that it's on Father's Day, and just considering the father and all of the ancient connections of the sun and the solar energy to the, the masculine, where the moon is the feminine. And we do live in a world right now currently, like seriously, uh, we've got a top-heavy effect where there's just the masculine has gone completely extractive and, and we're in a dominant, sort of dominator culture currently.
Um, with the feminine being really oppressed and r- really not in harmony. And so I feel like a harmonizing spell, uh, towards, you know, the ig ... when I ... the exalted form of the masculine, the exalted where it harmonizes with the feminine and the, and that polarity, because it's, it's discordant and it has been for a very long time.
And the feminine is our mother, the earth matrix. And the extraction that's been happening under capitalism f- It's just unprecedented, and this ruling elite of only a small group of billionaires, all dudes by the way, you know, th- they're... we're going to hell in a hand basket 'cause of these guys. So I think like a spell to kind of w- like a wake-up spell.
Like the sun is there, it's wa- it keeps us awake on the longest day. We see the clues and the what to do in what's going on, right? It's like the longest day, it's hard to sleep. Uh, our circadian rhythms are just like awake, awake, awake. So I, I just think wake up, dudes. Wake up, wake up, wake up. Like if there's a veil that we can lift on their eyes so they could see the, the effect that they're doing and having, uh, I would intercede on behalf of that.
Big time wake up.
Amy T.: I love that. I'm going to do a wake up spell on the solstice. Listeners, the solstice is today. If you're listening on the solstice, which is today when this episode comes out. So think about a wake up spell, think about creativity as prayer, think about podcasting and spell casting, and above all, maybe slow down, listen, and actually feel the soul of things.
Thank you so much, Eliza Swan. One last time, the book is The Alchemical Imagination. Thank you, Tree Carr. Again, the book is Technomancy. And listeners, I would get them as a little compendium. I feel like they work so beautifully together as a set of two, and I feel like you two work so beautifully together as a set of two.
And so I do hope that we can do this again. Thank you so much. Happy solstice, happy Litha, merry magic, merry science, and blessed fucking be. Thank you so much.
Tree: Thank you. That was wonderful. Thank you so much, Eliza. Thank you so much, Amy. Yeah.
Eliza: It was so fun.
Tree: Yeah. What a treat.
Amy T.: You must be a witch. If you wanna support the Missing Witches project, join the coven.
Find everything you need to know at missingwitches.com.